Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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ianh said:
I think you may have misunderstood my post. It was meant in the same way as if one person said "My foot hurts" and someone replied "OK then, I'll shoot you in the arm, that'll take your mind off the foot pain" then you could also say "well they're not wrong" etc because it is a solution to the problem posed, even if it's the solution is absolutely stupid. Thats why I put a smilie face on the end, to show I was being funny, guess that didn't work!

Hopefully that clears that up.

Edit - I do worry about the coming Winter though, as that "stupid" solution maybe starts to look more and more "rational" to the Politicians as the deaths build up and the people start to get cold and angry, who know what deals they'll do to keep the heat on.
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The post conflict or cold winter scenarios are interesting ones to kick around. we can guess at the Wests position but its hard to predict the Ruskies.

Say we went cap in hand to old Putey and said "look old chap is very darn cold and lots of our old peeps are dying, if we lift some sanctions could you turn the gas on please"
You can very easily see his saying, sure in the spring but you need to disarm Ukraine now.
He seems determined to carry on with this despite all the pain hes inflicting domestically, so I can see him actually playing no gas for you practically whatever we offer.

Likewise post conflict (it has to end eventually one way or the other). Do we the west say tuttut naughty boy, now about those fossil fuels we need? or do we play hardball.
Likewise does he want to carry on inflicting pain on us despite it inflicting larger pain domestically on Russia just because he can.

I am sure people are wargaming (pun intended) those scenarios and trying to decide economically and politically what and when the wests best moves are.
 
dowie said:
Nice, time to add on a bit more risk... some fast jets would be nice too even if perhaps just facilitating the transfer of MiGs.
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That doesn't mean they will get them as the decision is mainly a military one which is why they haven't already got them as well, I think US brass is genuinely concerned what effect launching US made weapons into Russian territory would have
 
Minusorange said:
That doesn't mean they will get them as the decision is mainly a military one which is why they haven't already got them as well, I think US brass is genuinely concerned what effect launching US made weapons into Russian territory would have
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I mean.. I'm concerned about the impact Russia has had on Ukraine when they invaded.

I wish we could stop being so bloody 'human' sometimes, and actually work together as a planet. We'd already be on mars by now if we did and figuring things out.
 
Minusorange said:
That doesn't mean they will get them as the decision is mainly a military one which is why they haven't already got them as well, I think US brass is genuinely concerned what effect launching US made weapons into Russian territory would have
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I think you mean the decision is mainly a political one surely? That's the concern, escalation and whether to take that risk and that ultimately is a political call for the executive to make and the military to advise on or implement if ordered.
 
dowie said:
I think you mean the decision is mainly a political one surely? That's the concern, escalation and whether to take that risk and that ultimately is a political call for the executive to make and the military to advise on or implement if ordered.
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"Technically" as the US President is the head of the US Military and the Political head, both minusorange and yourself are right, technically of course :D
 
dowie said:
I think you mean the decision is mainly a political one surely? That's the concern, escalation and whether to take that risk and that ultimately is a political call for the executive to make and the military to advise on or implement if ordered.
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No, it's a military decision, they will be doing risk assessment of the military impact giving those weapons to Ukraine will have on the US
 
GreatAuk said:
www.bbc.co.uk

Cold showers as German city of Hanover reacts to Russian gas crisis

Hanover calls an end to hot showers and summer heating because of the Russian gas crisis.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

I wonder how many German engineering firms have been investigating the feasibility of throwing up some plants to generate gas from coal and wood before the winter...
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No-one will be called a "warmduscher" in Germany this year...

www.thelocal.de

German word of the day: Der Warmduscher

Warmduscher is quite a facetious, insulting term used to decry someone as weak or cowardly.
www.thelocal.de www.thelocal.de
 
Minusorange said:
No, it's a military decision, they will be doing risk assessment of the military impact giving those weapons to Ukraine will have on the US
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No, it definitely isn't, their job is to present the options, risks etc.. it's the executive's call re: what risks to take here. Biden, Johnson etc.. will be briefed not just by the military but by the State Department/Foreign Office, civilian intelligence agencies etc.. The US has these missiles, they could supply them whether they do is up to Biden and that's a political decision for him. They'll make decisions like these in conjunction with NATO allies too.

The Pentagon (or indeed the MOD etc..) can't just take a strategic decision like this and decide to supply jets or long-range missiles, it's absolutely a decision for the leader of a country to make and to order.
 
Minusorange said:
Any leader with any sense will leave military decisions to the military so yes it is a military decision on whether Ukraine get the longer range munitions, stop trying to drag people in your holes
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Edit - It isn't a military decision though, I guess the point that is being missed is that it is not the job of the military to dictate policy, that's for politicians, the military can advise on a range of options and advise on the risks of various options (adn other advice will come from Intelligence services, diplomatic service, allies etc..) but it's not their call whether to escalate things re: arms supplies and support or further sanctions or whether to deescalate, roll back sanctions etc.. those are all political decisions.
 
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I agree it won't be down to the military, they will be listened to.

I suspect any 300km himars rockets will be closely monitored and Ukraine will be told not to fire them into Russia, at a guess.
 
Shamikebab said:
The military will advise but they absolutely won't make the decision.
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dowie said:
But it isn't a military decision! I'm not trying to drag you into any holes you just don't seem to understand that, of course taking advice from the military is sensible, no one is saying otherwise, they also take advice from their intelligence services, their diplomatic service and consult with allies, military considerations aren't the only ones at play here.
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You're arguing semantics if the miltary says "no it's not a good idea" I'd say that it's a military decision even if ultimately the final say is down to an elected politician
 
Minusorange said:
You're arguing semantics if the miltary says "no it's not a good idea" I'd say that it's a military decision even if ultimately the final say is down to an elected politician
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The final say is the decision maker... you're saying it yourself...

If the military adviser says it's not a good idea and the politicians say do it anyway the decision left to the military is how to do it not whether to do it.
 
Minusorange said:
You're arguing semantics if the miltary says "no it's not a good idea" I'd say that it's a military decision even if ultimately the final say is down to an elected politician
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Biden isn't some crazy guy considering delivering nukes to Ukraine, this isn't something that requires a "no" rather this is a feasible option that is clearly on the table as a political decision for the President to make (as is the delivery of fast jets etc..).
 
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