EV general discussion

[b0rn2sk8]

only really the absence of 800V on the tesla, and maybe the giga casting with the potential repairability issue to reproach tesla ? ( & absence of adaptives)

800V isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, especially when you try and charge on a 400V charger which is the vast majority of the network, ask a Tycan owner.

The cells are still the limiting factor and the efficiency of the drive train makes a huge impact.

I’m pretty sure a Model Y will give you more range than an EV6/Ionic V on an equivalent charging session, that’s all that matters. It’s also less likely to throttle due to overheating or having a too cold battery.

 

[Django x2]

You tease

What did you order?

Well, £59k was agreed, and £1k build handed over. Does that help?

 

[DarrenM343]

Tesla's 'aging' platform is better than most other manufacturers new platforms, can you tell me what is bad or outdated about it vs others?

Ride, noise levels, general feel of the car when driven. The model 3 especially now looks very bland against the competition. Cars are an evolution of their predecessors, Tesla now need a new platform improving on the areas they're behind in, including build quality etc. They're still ahead with some of the tech but that's it.

I prefer the Model Y over the 3 but end of day it's based on the Model 3 platform, raised, so has some of the same built-in problems that can now be improved on with a new platform.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Well. It hasn’t got CarPlay for a start. And the wind noise means you want nice access to media

 

[Journey]

Ride, noise levels, general feel of the car when driven.

I don't consider those things platform, that is what is built on top of it. Hence why a platform can be adapted to many makes and models of vehicle, MEB for example with VW has the following.

Audi Q4 e-tron
Audi Q4 Sportback e-tron
Audi Q5 e-tron
Cupra Born
Škoda Enyaq iV
Škoda Enyaq Coupé iV
Volkswagen ID.3
Volkswagen ID.4
Volkswagen ID.5
Volkswagen ID.6
Volkswagen ID. Buzz
Volkswagen ID. Buzz Cargo

Are all of those the same to drive, same Nosie levels and same ride quality?

The model 3 especially now looks very bland against the competition.

Looks are something that cannot be counted as 'aging' since looks are different to everyone.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Well, £59k was agreed, and £1k build handed over. Does that help?

Not really. i4?

 

[Jonnycoupe]

I don't consider those things platform, that is what is built on top of it. Hence why a platform can be adapted to many makes and models of vehicle, MEB for example with VW has the following.

Audi Q4 e-tron
Audi Q4 Sportback e-tron
Audi Q5 e-tron
Cupra Born
Škoda Enyaq iV
Škoda Enyaq Coupé iV
Volkswagen ID.3
Volkswagen ID.4
Volkswagen ID.5
Volkswagen ID.6
Volkswagen ID. Buzz
Volkswagen ID. Buzz Cargo

Are all of those the same to drive, same Nosie levels and same ride quality?



Looks are something that cannot be counted as 'aging' since looks are different to everyone.

The suspension architecture is key to the noise transfer function of a platform and indeed suspension kinematics. So you do a great job to highight how that range of cars are limited to a certain set of attributes by the platform.

 

[Simon]

800V isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, especially when you try and charge on a 400V charger which is the vast majority of the network, ask a Tycan owner.

The cells are still the limiting factor and the efficiency of the drive train makes a huge impact.

I’m pretty sure a Model Y will give you more range than an EV6/Ionic V on an equivalent charging session, that’s all that matters. It’s also less likely to throttle due to overheating or having a too cold battery.

800V run inherently cooler. Physics doesn’t dictate most of the things you list anyway. The risk profile of the OEM/battery maker is more relevant.

 

[DarrenM343]

I don't consider those things platform, that is what is built on top of it. Hence why a platform can be adapted to many makes and models of vehicle, MEB for example with VW has the following.

Audi Q4 e-tron
Audi Q4 Sportback e-tron
Audi Q5 e-tron
Cupra Born
Škoda Enyaq iV
Škoda Enyaq Coupé iV
Volkswagen ID.3
Volkswagen ID.4
Volkswagen ID.5
Volkswagen ID.6
Volkswagen ID. Buzz
Volkswagen ID. Buzz Cargo

Are all of those the same to drive, same Nosie levels and same ride quality?



Looks are something that cannot be counted as 'aging' since looks are different to everyone.

If there are certain flaws in the design they would pass down to a greater or lesser extent through to each model. Making a car ride and handle well for example is not just about the springs and dampers, it's a property inherited through the ground up design too, the chassis.

 

[Journey]

If there are certain flaws in the design they would pass down to a greater or lesser extent through to each model. Making a car ride and handle well for example is not just about the springs and dampers, it's a property inherited through the ground up design too, the chassis.

Doesn't answer the points you made, about "Ride, noise levels, general feel of the car when driven" all of the cars are MEB's and none of them are the exactly the same in terms of what you mentioned when comparing the actual platform.

Also I didn't say the car was just spring and dampers, you said the platform was old/outdated, but haven't given reason why it is old and outdated only referring to the finished car noise etc. not the actual platform technology and design. I am sure many manufacturers would love to have a complete platform as good as Tesla do on the M3/MY, but they are catching up not surpassing.

Anyhow, we disagree simple as that.

 

[Spleen Sauce]

whats wrong with it? i always thought it is the most intuitive and clean/easy to operate.

Easy to operate - yes if you're happy to take your eyes off the road. No buttons doesn't necessarily mean better. Doesn't have Carplay or Android Auto, so you're reliant on Tesla's crap implementation of the limited available music services, or you're going back to basic Bluetooth streaming. Voice recognition utterly useless for my accent (both Siri and Google understand me perfectly well). Many of the 'groundbreaking' features such as Autopilot do not work as well as they should, nothing like they promise.

Basically iDrive 7 in a BMW destroys it in my opinion.

also drivetrain?

Yes.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

800V run inherently cooler. Physics doesn’t dictate most of the things you list anyway. The risk profile of the OEM/battery maker is more relevant.

Not at the cell level is doesn’t. A 3.x V cell is still a 3.x V regardless of how it’s configured in the wider pack and they are the limiting factor in current EV designs.

It allows you to use smaller gage wires to pump in the same number of KW’s but it doesn’t mean it is inherently cooler, you can just use bigger wires on a 400V system to achieve the same result.

The cooling of the pack is impacted by its physical packaging, the thermal mass of the cooling system and its ability to get rid of the heat.

The Model Y/EV6/Ionic V point was purely to point out to jpaul that a bigger number on a spec sheet doesn’t make something better.

The standard 800V Tycan system is rubbish on a 400V charger. Unless you spec an optional extra, you are stuck at 50kw. That is total excrement on a car that costs £lol.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Most cars are sized for 400V aswell so yes there is less heat, the spacing between parts can be more difficult as it’s more likely to jump. The fact you said wires rather than busbar tells all…

You seem to be good at twisting narrative to back suit your points.

Tesla gets good “mph” mainly as the first part of the charge curve it exceeds the standard for CCS connection and 500A… damn those “legacy automakers” sticking to the rules.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Doesn't answer the points you made, about "Ride, noise levels, general feel of the car when driven" all of the cars are MEB's and none of them are the exactly the same in terms of what you mentioned when comparing the actual platform.

He didn’t need to, I did.

 

[pc-guy]

Easy to operate - yes if you're happy to take your eyes off the road. No buttons doesn't necessarily mean better. Doesn't have Carplay or Android Auto, so you're reliant on Tesla's crap implementation of the limited available music services, or you're going back to basic Bluetooth streaming. Voice recognition utterly useless for my accent (both Siri and Google understand me perfectly well). Many of the 'groundbreaking' features such as Autopilot do not work as well as they should, nothing like they promise.

Basically iDrive 7 in a BMW destroys it in my opinion.



Yes.

Yeah I see your gripes. Personally I like physical buttons. But then again it seems to be moving to that centre console control.

The drivetrain as it is more efficient?

 

[Simon]

Not at the cell level is doesn’t. A 3.x V cell is still a 3.x V regardless of how it’s configured in the wider pack and they are the limiting factor in current EV designs.

It allows you to use smaller gage wires to pump in the same number of KW’s but it doesn’t mean it is inherently cooler, you can just use bigger wires on a 400V system to achieve the same result.

The cooling of the pack is impacted by its physical packaging, the thermal mass of the cooling system and its ability to get rid of the heat.

The Model Y/EV6/Ionic V point was purely to point out to jpaul that a bigger number on a spec sheet doesn’t make something better.

The standard 800V Tycan system is rubbish on a 400V charger. Unless you spec an optional extra, you are stuck at 50kw. That is total excrement on a car that costs £lol.

Well electrical systems are current limited rather than volts. Not sure about the taycan point, a gridseve 120kW is actually 150A limited. Hence only 60kW on 400V.

 

[DarrenM343]

Doesn't answer the points you made, about "Ride, noise levels, general feel of the car when driven" all of the cars are MEB's and none of them are the exactly the same in terms of what you mentioned when comparing the actual platform.

Also I didn't say the car was just spring and dampers, you said the platform was old/outdated, but haven't given reason why it is old and outdated only referring to the finished car noise etc. not the actual platform technology and design. I am sure many manufacturers would love to have a complete platform as good as Tesla do on the M3/MY, but they are catching up not surpassing.

Anyhow, we disagree simple as that.

Do you not think after 4 years Tesla can build a much better car/platform/chassis whatever you want to call it? Considering they're still a relatively new manufacturer?
I've driven loads and loads of cars over the years and the Model 3 particular is just not where it needs to be at. Sure the tech is good, the FSD blows the nerds away but as a car overall it's not great.
And I did give examples. The ride is an inherited property due to it's chassis design, as is the general noise levels. Put the largest wheels on a Model Y and it's terrible, due to it's chassis largely.

So,summary, Tesla need to catch up in some areas as much as others need to improve on their tech. A new ground up design would help.

 

[Simon]

Doesn't answer the points you made, about "Ride, noise levels, general feel of the car when driven" all of the cars are MEB's and none of them are the exactly the same in terms of what you mentioned when comparing the actual platform.

Also I didn't say the car was just spring and dampers, you said the platform was old/outdated, but haven't given reason why it is old and outdated only referring to the finished car noise etc. not the actual platform technology and design. I am sure many manufacturers would love to have a complete platform as good as Tesla do on the M3/MY, but they are catching up not surpassing.

Anyhow, we disagree simple as that.

What exactly makes the Tesla platform so good. Especially when they have what. 3 different ones now?

If we go into model 3 again. As Darren hints. What’s so good about the platform (as you say. Ignore the stuff that makes up the cars characteristics).

I see you ignored my question about driving one...

 

[SDK^]

I very rarely use public chargers so don't see the point in paying the premium for a Tesla, as the charging network is their major selling point.
A Model Y Long Range with decent wheels and the premium interior is £62k now. This is too much IMO.

Sure, the demand is there, but it just feels like the Apple fan crowd all over again. Queuing up outside the stores overnight to grab the latest phone because it's trendy to do so.

 

[Simon]

Yeh. The repair model is pretty similar to apple too. I don’t think Tesla car about the after sales/service part of the customers experience. Just want to sell car and replace when they break.