COVID-19 (Coronavirus) discussion
- Thread starter ThundyCat
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Some people think Covid is a scam so getting agreement from all would be tricky lol
Yes, it could have been a coincidence, but when they pile up it becomes less of a coincidence/anecdote and more of a 1 in 1000 people situation.
Soldato
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So at 1 in 1000 that’s 0.1% or 60,000 approx self reported “ouches”. What was the excess death rate again? And how did that change post vaccine?
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Or it becomes a perfect example of "Correlation does not equal Causation."
Which is exactly what I commented on previously with someone RE: MMR Jab and Autism.
When you say "yes it could have been coincidence... but" you very quickly veer away from the path of scientifically lead analysis and rapidly move into the realms of "But it's what I feel so...."
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Yeah indeed, and we've gotten over it.I was “sold” the only product available in order to move through the crisis and was happy to get the sore arm to achieve the end. You get over it
Though excess mortality across western industrialised nations is now consistently running 20% above normal, month on month.
There was no link between MMR and autism - the data was literally made up and couldn't be replicated by anyone else.
Wakefield’s article linking MMR vaccine and autism was fraudulent
Clear evidence of falsification of data should now close the door on this damaging vaccine scare “Science is at once the most questioning and . . . sceptical of activities and also the most trusting,” said Arnold Relman, former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine , in 1989. “It is...
Soldato
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Some of that will be covid, and some of that will be the indirect effects of covid. It’s all still down to the pandemic.
Appreciate the sentiment though, these things have to be worked through some how. We all make our own choices on how to do it.
*barring a new horrific variant, which could still be on the cards.
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There was no link between MMR and autism - the data was literally made up and couldn't be replicated by anyone else.
Wakefield’s article linking MMR vaccine and autism was fraudulent
Clear evidence of falsification of data should now close the door on this damaging vaccine scare “Science is at once the most questioning and . . . sceptical of activities and also the most trusting,” said Arnold Relman, former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine , in 1989. “It is...www.bmj.com
And yet it did not stop a whole multitude of people (many medical, but not experts in the field, Just like John Campbell above) from trying to draw such conclusions and misrepresenting data to do so.
It did not stop the press constantly running front-page articles re-hyping the narrative.
It did not stop a significant proportion of the general public from starting to believe it was true, leading to many worrying or even refusing the MMR jab for their kids.
This is exactly the problem with people going off their assumptions and what they feel, often citing things such as ....
Which as I pointed out previous post, is rapidly veering away from scientifically lead analysis and moving into the realms of "feels" because they believe that what they anecdotally saw was / is more than just a coincidence".
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Sounds a bit like the early days of the pandemic to be honest. You missed the bit where I linked to the stats reported by Norway in their yellow card reporting system? These aren't anecdotes.
Even the MHRA reckon they only capture about 10% of events through the UK yellow card reporting system.
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Don't seem to be getting anything horrifying yet severity wise but a couple of variants emerging in China which seem more transmissible than Omicron and current vaccines aren't effective against, though previous infection conferred immunity does seem effective against them. They'll probably die out when they are done working through populations with low existing levels of immunity though.
What worries me a bit according to the sites like nextstrain we are rocketing through variations which significantly raises the chances of variants requiring complex mutations to be viable happening by chance and we don't really know the full extent of the capabilities of the disease.
It does share some striking parallel's with what we've seen regarding the Covid Jabs, you're spot on with that comparison to the early days of the pandemic tbh, although looking back it feels like the whole MMR / Autism thing at its height and people's reluctance (or straight refusal) to have it done was a lot more significant back then? (maybe it's just because it's a memory rather than current events)
I must admit I had missed your post RE: Norway yellow card system, however I would tentatively say... They are also not conclusive of any connection and still require more investigation and independent verification to know for sure it is anything beyond coincidences due to co-morbidities etc...
In regard to the Covid Jab / MMR Jab comparison, I would just say this...
Pretty sure I am not the only person here who remembers clearly all the "drama" being kicked up about the MMR jab and possible links to autism (Which as you rightly pointed out, where entirely false)
You provided evidence which clearly disproves claim(s) made about possible links between the MMR Jab and Autism.
That should be enough (for anyone not wearing a tinfoil hat) to end the issue and enough to step back from (potentially) misinterpreting coincidence(s) into causation.
Many, Many people in here have provided similar evidence to disprove many of the (negative) claims regarding the Covid Vaccine yet it does not stop the almost daily occurance recently of people coming into the thread and throwing around lots of claims and allegations they cannot actually back up, then when pressed upon it they either vanish into the ether (Tang0)
Or they start posting misinformation videos from the likes of John Campbell and doubling down on their rhetoric and even after multiple members have posted multiple examples of said individual deliberately misrepresenting data regarding Covid including such claims as Ivermectin being a useful treatment which resulted in Ivermectin becoming extremely difficult to procure for it's more "conventional" uses (such as pet birds, horses etc..) due to all the tinfoil hatters running out to buy Pigeon / Horse wormer because of just such "content" and "claims" being made by non-experts masquerading as experts (John Campbell was a nurse, he is in NO way qualified or versed in immunology virology or a whole host of other disciplines required to actually make the claims he makes.)
*Edit* Added extra bit from / to @Jokester that I had missed previously
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Soldato
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christ my wife did that and we didnt get paid for it. the joys of working in science academia.Lucky dip apparently, some sampling method selected our address!
Got a letter through the door. In August 2020 about this survey "we will give you 25 quid for doing a nose swab.. For each person in your house"
4 in month one. Then 1 every month and it's still going!
For first 24 months someone came to the door gave you kit and took it away. Apparently they got paid very well!
Now it's via post. So basically I get tested every month blood (optional) and nose swab. Get the results by email. Its basically 10 mins work. It's most efficient to do it in work time!
Indeed the rate of mutation is certainly a point of concern, although I do generally tend to subscribe to the train of thought that goes something along the lines of...
"Virus's are looking to infect and spread, not kill. If a Virus kills it's host too quickly it dies itself and cannot spread, so logic would seem to suggest that over time they should if anything become more and more infectious but less and less lethal"
It's certainly paraphrasing but I think you get the general idea
A truly lethal virus doesn't have a very long "lifespan" in developed countries with modern medicine, because even if you cannot cure it outright we can (and do) take many preventative measures to limit it's spread so that it dies out before it can spread. (Look at the way the Smallpox (I think it was) was contained a couple years back, it's a truly nasty and deadly thing, but due to modern medicine and pathogen control it did not spread beyond a few victims.)
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If we respond quickly enough - but a virus with a latent lethality could be very nasty given how slow we are to respond sometimes.
Yes very true and even if we respond quickly, that only works for westernized countries with modern medicine. It would lay waste to 3rd world countries
Delayed morbidity could be a real threat though as you say, with such rapid mutations happening it greatly increases the possibility of a highly infectious strain popping up that also has a delayed onset to morbidity could be catastrophic even with modern medicine.
I had to read the document that came with the initial offer twice. Couldn't quite believe it. It's quite interesting to know that I'm still positive for antibodies even now
I never had any vaccine as I wasn’t too keen on the mRNA thing.
I got Covid for the first time shortly after Boxing day. I woke up in bed thinking this is it kid, you are done for. Could just about move over in my bed!
Never felt anything like it. But… I live to tell the tale! Covid 0 / Phil 1.
I got Covid for the first time shortly after Boxing day. I woke up in bed thinking this is it kid, you are done for. Could just about move over in my bed!
Never felt anything like it. But… I live to tell the tale! Covid 0 / Phil 1.
IIRC at the moment it takes a long time for a doctor to even start to consider "long covid" as a diagnosis. For example you've got to have been clear of covid for several months (no reinfection) and still have symptoms of it for something like 3-6 months, and i'm not sure if there is a proper clinical criteria for it yet.
It's similar in some regards to CFS/ME both of which seem to share some symptoms with "long covid" and are also possibly/probably triggered by viral infections (although genetics and environment may or may not also play a part) maybe even with some of the same results, and to put that in perspective there are thought to be about 100-200k people with that in the UK, but only a handful of doctors who specialise in it, and it's usually only diagnosed after you've had the symptoms for about 6 months minimum and pretty much every other test has been run to rule out other things (so in reality a year+ of being ill before you've got a chance at diagnosis*).
In the US there are thought to be over a million people with CFS/ME, but I was reading a while back (in relation to long covid**) that the number of specialists wouldn't fill a mini bus.
So to put things in a short form, if long covid is real (and it looks to be, we know covid does damage, and there is research showing persistent micro clots in some people), you could have hundreds of thousands of people who have the signs of having it, but only a trickle getting diagnosed because it's not immediately life threatening (so no rush) and a condition where they can't do a test that will show something specific, and it can take weeks/months between each of the tests so you could be looking at a lag of well over a year, especially with the health system struggling.
It's also worth noting that with the decrease in testing finding out who has some od, lingering illness and being able to link it to covid or something is going to get a lot harder, so you'll potentially have a number of people with something that can no longer be traced back to a known specific cause.
*And with that time frame it was no wonder so many people with it were misdiagnosed as "depression" at one point, as if you went from being active and fit to having some odd debilitating illness depression isn't going to be uncommon (it happens to some people who've had an injury or illness that they know about and know they'll recover from it, but maybe not for 6+ months).
**As basically the best people to know about how to deal with it in the short term are potentially those already familiar with dealing with similar symptoms.
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