Christian Horner sacked!

[Malt_Vinegar]

Did I say that?

I only presumed your desire to break down and (I quote) "mitigate" the points I made was in some way suggesting they were incorrect, or that my interpretation was incorrect?

Why the sudden climb down?

 

[sidimmu]

The reality will be that if he is that good he will be TP of a new team next season.

Is that really the test?

He can choose to go do whatever he wants to, he's accomplished what he needs to, got the money, I reckon he can retire if he wants to.
Sounds like your expectations outweigh the reality.

 

[Mr Jack]

I rate Horner above Toto. Red bull have won things in the last three technical eras, Merc won everything in one specific era that was comically stacked in their favour from the start… and even then Red Bull managed to pull that advantage back before the end of the era.

Toto hasn't been around for as long as Horner -- ask again in 8 years, no? I think arguing one or the other is better is a rather fruitless exercise, it's not like we have remotely enough information to really say. Both have shown they can gather talent around them and win multiple championships. There's no reasonable argument that Horner doesn't have an incredible record as Team Principle. The same applies to Toto.

Meanwhile we are in the final season of these current regulations and Merc still haven’t got remotely close to having a car capable of competing for wins regularly, let alone championships.

They aren't doing any worse than Red Bull did between 2014 and 2021.

 

[Kenai]

But yeah I'd argue he's been a better boss than Toto, half of Toto's championship comes from a rule/engine change.

You could just as easily argue that Red Bulls rise from the arse end of the grid to 4 time title winners coincided with the 2009 rule changes, it's just in 2009 Brawn stole enough of a march on everyone else initially to wrap up 2009 itself.

I think if you pin half of Toto's achievements as being 'from a rule change' then then same applies to Red Bull dominating the 2009-2013 rule change era, having been pretty much nowhere before it, so it can't really create any differentiation in who was a 'better boss'.

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

The results suggest he was a great team principle, and that is what the record books will show.

Undeniably he is a big part of how RB has gone about being successful, but that does not mean I have to like the way he did it... That is my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[UTmaniac]

Also don’t recall Red Bull ever making as glaringly bad design decisions as Merc did at the start of this current era

Just as Merc fell off the cliff with their '22 regs design, Red Bull fell off a cliff in '14 with the new regs.

 

[Kenai]

They won all that in spite of him not because of him. They had <..> Adrian Newey designing the cars which again had nothing to do with him.

Nothing to do with him? I was always under the impression Horner was extremely influential in the campaign to bring Newey specifically into the team back then.

 

[Junglist]

If we want to talk about good bosses in the present day then I'm looking at Zak Brown. Look how he has changed Mclaren the last 7 or so years. He is the real deal.

 

[Stumble Bum]

The reality will be that if he is that good he will be TP of a new team next season.

I mean this doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[Dup]

The results suggest he was a great team principle, and that is what the record books will show.

Undeniably he is a big part of how RB has gone about being successful, but that does not mean I have to like the way he did it... That is my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Exactly, you don't keep a top end job in sport for 20 years if you're not good at it. Especially when the owners are one big international marketing company.

 

[sidimmu]

hy the sudden climb down?

Its not a sudden climb down, the second sentence was in the original reply to you.

I only presumed your desire to break down and (I quote) "mitigate" the points I made was in some way suggesting they were incorrect, or that my interpretation was incorrect?

You used them as a gauge of bad character against the team, not Horner as an individual.
What I meant was if you could remove some blinkers/prejudice/hatred, you might be able to see the reality of those points and why they are not as massive "got cha's" as you thought.

You could just as easily argue that Red Bulls rise from the arse end of the grid to 4 time title winners coincided with the 2009 rule changes, it's just in 2009 Brawn stole enough of a march on everyone else initially to wrap up 2009 itself.

I think if you pin half of Toto's achievements as being 'from a rule change' then then same applies to Red Bull dominating the 2009-2013 rule change era, having been pretty much nowhere before it, so it can't really create any differentiation in who was a 'better boss'.

But Red Bull had not come up with the double diffuser and the other bits that made Brawn as powerful as they did.
They copied them, they had the right to, so I dont think its the rule change that made the red bull of 2009-2013, it was their savageness to copy, try and test. If they were the ones to find the approach, surely they would have been dominating like Brawn was from race 1?

 

[Feek]

Zak Brown

Now there's someone who's going to have a smile on his boat right now.

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

You used them as a gauge of bad character against the team, not Horner as an individual.
What I meant was if you could remove some blinkers/prejudice/hatred, you might be able to see the reality of those points and why they are not as massive "got cha's" as you thought.

In my opinion, the "team" were complicit in the bad handling of lots of those things. No doubt taking direction from the top!!

However, let's not get away from the point here, I look forward to reading you post mitigating them all so I can learn your side of the argument

 

[Scam]

Travelling for work but a couple of friends messaged me about this. Not much to say apart from good riddance. Everyone on here knows my opinion on him, the way he conducts the team, the people he surrounds himself with, and that wholly negative affect on the sport.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

Now there's someone who's going to have a smile on his boat right now.

Zak and Toto will be throwing a party

 

[Kenai]

But Red Bull had not come up with the double diffuser and the other bits that made Brawn as powerful as they did.
They copied them, they had the right to, so I dont think its the rule change that made the red bull of 2009-2013, it was their savageness to copy, try and test. If they were the ones to find the approach, surely they would have been dominating like Brawn was from race 1?

Whether they copied an idea from someone else or not, you can't argue that their rise from 7th to 2nd (and subsequently four titles) wasn't 'due to a rule change' if you're saying the same thing for Merc moving from 5th/2nd place in 2012/2013 to winners in 2014 onwards.

If Merc's success in 2014 onwards was 'due to a rule change', then Red Bull's success from 2009-2013 was equally 'due to a rule change'.

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

Ferrari could probably do with a new team principle, and Horner's lewdness is very Italian. Sooo?

Lewis and Horner . Can you imagine the radio chat ?

must have been serious to sack him given his success!

He will probably take a break for a while and see how things pan out with the 2026 rule changes.

Will be interesting to see what Max does but I think we all know he's off to Mercedes.

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

Ferrari could probably do with a new team principle, and Horner's lewdness is very Italian. Sooo?

Lewis and Horner . Can you imagine the radio chat ?

must have been serious to sack him given his success!

will probably take a break for a while and see how things pan out with the 2026 rule changes.

Will be interesting to see what Max does but I think we all know he's off to Mercedes.

 

[imtoooldforthis]

Toto hasn't been around for as long as Horner -- ask again in 8 years, no? I think arguing one or the other is better is a rather fruitless exercise, it's not like we have remotely enough information to really say. Both have shown they can gather talent around them and win multiple championships. There's no reasonable argument that Horner doesn't have an incredible record as Team Principle. The same applies to Toto.



They aren't doing any worse than Red Bull did between 2014 and 2021.

Red Bull built a title winning car in 2021.. clawing back a comical performance difference that had previously existed due to a poor engine.

Merc have been a massive failure this entire era with poor design choices one after another and at no point have come close to building a championship winning car. Even in Mercs peak years many people still claimed Red Bull had the better chassis/aero etc and that the engine was the overwhelming reason Merc were dominant.

Red Bull showed they could develop a car throughout one technical era, they started out with no hope of beating Merc but by 2021 they had more or less caught up. I see no evidence of Merc doing that.

Just as Merc fell off the cliff with their '22 regs design, Red Bull fell off a cliff in '14 with the new regs.

Yes but the big difference is red bull pulled back the performance before the end of the era, producing a title winning car.

Merc haven’t pulled anything back this era, they’ve been out developed by Red Bull, McLaren and arguably even Ferrari.

 

[Feek]

Will be interesting to see what Max does but I think we all know he's off to Mercedes.

Do you not consider that now Horner has gone, he has no reason to leave Red Bull? I think he and Jos will be very happy at the moment.