Air India Crash

Drukk said:
No pilot would ever accidently cut both engine switches and not a chance both would fail like that.
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You would be amazed at what caused, or contributed to some accidents.

Almost all of the safety features that involve things like locking switches, specific placement of controls the different size and shape of controls, switch guards, anti knock bumpers etc are there because at some point there has been at least one serious incident that involved a pilot, or co pilot either activating the wrong control via a deliberate action but getting the wrong one, or accidentally activating a control whilst for example reaching for another one.
 
Drukk said:
No pilot would ever accidently cut both engine switches
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I didn't say accidentally I said unintentionally.

Accidentally catching both switches with your hand after moving the throttles in a way that will also knock them backwards and over the locking limit is realistically impossible (sure it can be done but you'd dozens if not hundreds of attempts to nail it).

Inadvertently going to perform an action that you've done hundreds of times (like the gear, or many other things) and having your muscle memory instead perform a different action you've also done hundreds of times is sadly human nature.

Good examples would be somebody going to switch between Windows or browser tabs and instead closing the active tab or the whole application. Somebody going to the bin to throw away the wrapper from the food they've just opened and instead throwing away the food then standing there holding the wrapper like a lemon. Somebody doing some dogfighting with their wingman during a live exercise and shooting him down (yes this has happened several times around the globes air forces). Somebody intending to pick up their toothbrush and instead using the hand soap dispenser. Etc, etc.
 
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danlightbulb said:
However it is true that training to be an airline pilot is very expensive and therefore reserved for initially quite privileged people. The best passenger jet captain in the world could be sitting in a school in a dead end corner of a city right now and no one knows - that person will likely never get the opportunity to be a pilot.

Like in any job, there are very competent people, borderline competent people and incompetent people. I bet the same is true in airline world (comparative to the standards required).
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That could be said for any job though.

And IIRC many airline pilots start off as either private pilots who get into training after getting a private aircraft, or via the military route.

Pretty much any skilled job requires at least some investment to do it be and airlines are little different in that to say a job that requires a degree, and there are multiple routes into airline pilot work that don't necessarily require a massive upfront investment. IIRC you can for example get training loans for it, or if you leave the military with a flight qualification, then there is the old train on a small aircraft and try and get into the training school for the airline route etc.
 
Werewolf said:
You would be amazed at what caused, or contributed to some accidents.

Almost all of the safety features that involve things like locking switches, specific placement of controls the different size and shape of controls, switch guards, anti knock bumpers etc are there because at some point there has been at least one serious incident that involved a pilot, or co pilot either activating the wrong control via a deliberate action but getting the wrong one, or accidentally activating a control whilst for example reaching for another one
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I've been in the industry a long time including working 747 and 777, have never heard of a pilot turning both engines off accidently or unintentionally, however you look at it.
 
ubersonic said:
I didn't say accidentally I said unintentionally.

Accidentally catching both switches with your hand after moving the throttles in a way that will also knock them backwards and over the locking limit is realistically impossible (sure it can be done but you'd dozens if not hundreds of attempts to nail it).

Inadvertently going to perform an action that you've done hundreds of times (like the gear, or many other things) and having your muscle memory instead perform a different action you've also done hundreds of times is sadly human nature.

Good examples would be somebody going to switch between Windows or browser tabs and instead closing the active tab or the whole application. Somebody going to the bin to throw away the wrapper from the food they've just opened and instead throwing away the food then standing there holding the wrapper like a lemon. Somebody doing some dogfighting with their wingman during a live exercise and shooting him down (yes this has happened several times around the globes air forces). Somebody intending to pick up their toothbrush and instead using the hand soap dispenser. Etc, etc.
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Accidently, unintentionally, however you want to look at it, I don't believe for 1 minute it was either of those. I've been in the industry a long time and never heard of a pilot turning both engines off in flight not on purpose. This will come out as a suicide.
 
Drukk said:
Accidently, unintentionally, however you want to look at it, I don't believe for 1 minute it was either of those. I've been in the industry a long time and never heard of a pilot turning both engines off in flight not on purpose. This will come out as a suicide.
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I don’t think we have enough evidence from what has been released to confirm either way. Just because you’ve never heard of something happening, doesn’t mean it can’t.
 
200sols said:
Thread is just turning into a cesspit of idle speculation now.
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Speculation means the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence. What's been happening in this thread over the past few weeks is the exact opposite of that.

Through polite/reasoned discussion of the known evidence/facts, the possibilities, and the plausibility of such possibilities it's been inferred that there are only really two possible plausible/viable scenarios left: Intentional act by a pilot or unintentional act by a pilot.
 
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danlightbulb said:
Like in any job, there are very competent people, borderline competent people and incompetent people. I bet the same is true in airline world (comparative to the standards required).
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No, pilots have to complete a very detailed check ride at regular intervals. If they're incompetent, they don't pass and don't fly. It's as simple as that.
 
Sankari said:
Starting to look like pilot error, and nothing else.
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Pilot error?

How on earth do you draw that conclusion from that post? If anything, it says the opposite by saying it wasn't mechanical or inadvertent moment. The implication is that it was deliberate.


The head of the Federal Aviation Administration said on Thursday the fatal crash last month of Air India flight 171 does not appear to have been caused by a mechanical issue or inadvertent movement of the fuel control unit or switches.

"We can say with a high level of confidence is it doesn't appear to be a mechanical issue with the Boeing fuel control unit," Bryan Bedford, the FAA's administrator, told reporters on the sidelines of an air show in Wisconsin.
 
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