New kitchen extension - a few questions and any comments

Integrated fridge/freezer - door-on-door or sliding door. Which is better/more durable?

For me ? neither

Use that dead space that you're currently putting a chair into and have a freestanding American style fridge freezer. They're amazing and you'l appreciate the space over the built in ones. Modern appliances have built in obsolesce so they will give up eventually, and when they do you won't need to worry about replacing your integrated units and keeping the matching fascia panels and can just buy whatever color / size / style you like as it's free standing. Wouldn't tie yourself to a built in (if it were me)

- I'd pay any premium and suffer any loss of capacity to have all built in appliances including fridge/freezer just on the basis that the kitchen just looks so much nicer.

you'd find you'd regret it and want to switch back once you've tried it. I used to dread having to put the shopping away every week in our built in fridge because you just knew it wasn't going to fit and you needed to pull everything out to re-organize it to get it to fit. Hateful things those integrated ones. Look great on instagram, but after living with one for a few months you'll be planning you're next kitchen to get rid of them.

On the fridge/freezer thing, have you considered a full height integrated fridge and a separate full height integrated freezer? We went this option after slumming it with a single fridge/freezer combo for many years and it's honestly glorious. I don't know without checking but I'd guess there may even be a bit more space in them combined than what you'd get in your standard American style fridge freezer.

or do this. best of both worlds. Looking at your drawings you have plenty of space that you could fit this in.
 
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Are you getting underfloor heating put in? That’s one thing that will be incredibly difficult to retrofit or upgrade later! Great opportunity now if you’re screeding etc.

Nope - the rest of the house doesn't have it. We would probably need to make changes to the heating system for it to make sense. If we were doing the whole ground floor I'd probably be all over it!

Problem is the non-integrated ones look absolute tatt. If you're dropping 10 grand + on a kitchen you don't really want to then be looking at a ginormous white/stainless steel doors.

We have an American FF at the moment - it's going to go in the garage as an "overflow". That way at Xmas etc we will have the extra space. Plus our youngest is just about to go off to uni so it will be just the 2 of us for most of the year.

Have you had a chance to use an induction job? There's definitely no lag in temperature control - it's as instant as gas. If anything the boost function for boiling water I find significantly quicker than gas.

My brother has one. Love the tech, hate the UI on most of them, pressing touch buttons to turn it up and down is a pain - I want a knob! Looking at the Elica (with a knob for every zone) and a Neff with a magnetic "puck". Elica great to use, Neff great to clean.
 
Nope - the rest of the house doesn't have it. We would probably need to make changes to the heating system for it to make sense. If we were doing the whole ground floor I'd probably be all over it!

We've just finished a rear kitchen / diner extension (approx 40sqm) and had underfloor heating added to the new bit but not the existing house. In hindsight, I should have gone for the extra cost to get it done in the main kitchen but I absolutely would not even consider not getting in done in the new extension. It's cheap to run, fairly inexpensive to install on a new build area, gives the area a really nice feel all the time and you don't lose walls to radiators.
 
My brother has one. Love the tech, hate the UI on most of them, pressing touch buttons to turn it up and down is a pain - I want a knob! Looking at the Elica (with a knob for every zone) and a Neff with a magnetic "puck". Elica great to use, Neff great to clean.

Yeah I do get what you mean, I guess you will always have a trade-off between functionality and practicality. No matter how clean you try and keep your knobs they will always get food and what not under them. :eek:

I guess my one pet peeve on mine is if you have multiple zones on and you want to switch one off, you have to select the zone and then press the - button until it hits zero. If you press the off button then it'll switch off all zones. But practicality it is amazing and I wouldn't now go for a gas hob if it was even being offered for free.
 
We've just finished a rear kitchen / diner extension (approx 40sqm) and had underfloor heating added to the new bit but not the existing house. In hindsight, I should have gone for the extra cost to get it done in the main kitchen but I absolutely would not even consider not getting in done in the new extension. It's cheap to run, fairly inexpensive to install on a new build area, gives the area a really nice feel all the time and you don't lose walls to radiators.
My understanding is that the requirements are very different. Rads require hotter water for maybe an hour, underfloor requires lower temp supply for hours. An existing single heating loop combi will be inefficient running like this. I understand that there are changes you can make with divertor valves etc, but that is extra expense.
 
Yeah I do get what you mean, I guess you will always have a trade-off between functionality and practicality. No matter how clean you try and keep your knobs they will always get food and what not under them. :eek:

I guess my one pet peeve on mine is if you have multiple zones on and you want to switch one off, you have to select the zone and then press the - button until it hits zero. If you press the off button then it'll switch off all zones. But practicality it is amazing and I wouldn't now go for a gas hob if it was even being offered for free.
Hence why the "puck" seems a good idea.
 
My understanding is that the requirements are very different. Rads require hotter water for maybe an hour, underfloor requires lower temp supply for hours. An existing single heating loop combi will be inefficient running like this. I understand that there are changes you can make with divertor valves etc, but that is extra expense.
This isn’t strictly the case. It may be how a system may works because it’s very poorly optimised with very small radiators and a fixed flow temperature from the boiler and/or a fixed output boiler.

However, decent modern boilers should be able to vary their flow temperature automatically with the right controls and weather compensation. The same modern boilers can modulate their outputs down as low as 1-2kw on 24kw boiler, slightly higher for a 30kw boiler.

Basically the colder it is the hotter the flow temperature to the radiators and the higher the output of the boiler.

Likewise, you should really be targeting a maximum flow temperature for heating of 50C to ensure the boiler is undertaking long heating cycles and remains in its most efficient condensing mode for as long as possible. You compensate for the lower flow temperatures with larger radiators.

This is way more efficient than on, off’ on, off etc.

The most efficient systems combine low flow temperatures, long cycle times, single loops all operating at the same temperature and as little zoning as is practical, ideally no zoning.
 
My understanding is that the requirements are very different. Rads require hotter water for maybe an hour, underfloor requires lower temp supply for hours. An existing single heating loop combi will be inefficient running like this. I understand that there are changes you can make with divertor valves etc, but that is extra expense.

I'm not sure how it works with a combi boiler (if that's what you have) but the cost to install and run underfloor heating in our extension was about the same as installing traditional rads. It's 100x better in terms of output and comfort though. We have a standard system boiler and the rest of the existing house is on normal rads and nothing was required to be changed there, that side of things continues to work as normal.

With rads, I find a room either feels cool or warm, with underfloor heating the room always feels a comfortable temperature to the point where we don't even think about it anymore.

I don't know the cost of your extension but I think 40sqm of UFH was under £2k including VAT, installation and the valves and bits needed.
 
Nothing to add except this: if you get a fridge with a plumbed water supply, install a filter (we used the 3 stage by WaterDrop) on the incoming feed.

We put one under the sink when the new kitchen was fitted, but soon realised the water feed going into the new fridge wasn't filtered (big difference in taste/hardness). It took a bit of faff to install the filter after we'd finished the kitchen, which we could have avoided if it had occurred to us beforehand.
 
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We went with the AEG Induction Extractor Hob and honestly, it's been spot on. It solved two major issues in one:
  • Extraction: It allowed us to vent under the island with the ducting kit, neatly and without needing to run ducting under concrete (we didnt need an extraction, as it was open plan, and we had an extractor fan in the utilityroom) . Re-circulation works well in this case, and it vents discreetly through the kickboard, and has carbon filters.
  • Controls, I was coming from gas and didn’t want to faff around with endless button pressing. What won me over was the one-touch control — you can turn the entire hob into one big zone or control individual zones super easily. It’s very intuitive. Has Wifi, if you want to check filter status etc (overkill).
I am super glad we did the following,
  • Sockets: It’s easy to underestimate how many you’ll use. We added extras last minute, and it was the right call. All our sockets are hidden — inside larders or out of sight — so nothing spoils the look of the splashback or worktops.
  • Corner storage: If you’ve got corner units, definitely go for pull-outs or Le Mans units. You’ll use that space so much more effectively.
  • Lighting zones: Being able to control spotlights, under-cabinet lights, and feature lighting separately makes a massive difference in everyday use and when entertaining.
  • Networking: If you’re having floors dug up or ceilings down, it’s the perfect time to run Cat5/6 cables. I added a data point into the island so we can work from there if needed — super handy.
  • Hidden larder: We included a concealed larder for storage, kettle, and coffee machine. 100% worth it — it keeps the main kitchen area clutter-free.
  • Warming draw, just wanted one but we use it all the time for hot plates and just keeping food warm for 1+hr or so after cooking.
the only thing i wish we had done was a hot water tap: it’s something we can add later — but if you’re in planning now, it’s a great time to fit one.

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@kai That looks great!

If it's not too much trouble, can you take some photos of the sockets you fitted? I really like how un-cluttered it all looks.

Also where did you get the 3 lights over the hob, I really like those.

How much do you use the "mood" lighting - under cabinet etc? My thoughts are to fit more rather than less - it's not expensive but could really add to the feel.
 
@kai That looks great!

If it's not too much trouble, can you take some photos of the sockets you fitted? I really like how un-cluttered it all looks.

Also where did you get the 3 lights over the hob, I really like those.

How much do you use the "mood" lighting - under cabinet etc? My thoughts are to fit more rather than less - it's not expensive but could really add to the feel.
Nothing special, you can see a sock in the larder by the kettle and toaster. There are some extra in the island for wine fridge etc with spares, including inside cupboards. We have one on show' on the worktop and one in the island that's flush. It's under the overhang so you wont see it. However, this is old photo, the facr plate has been changed to match the colour of the island. We did a similar thing in the utility as well.

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"How much do you use the "mood" lighting"... A lot. The entire house is run off Hue. It can be expensive but i have built up over time; and everything now runs more or less off automation, i.e. lights come up and change according to sunset/sunrise etc. Lights so off if we leave house radius etc.
 
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Made a couple of changes. The short worktop run has been moved:

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3d render:

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A lot happier with this as it keeps the kitchen "zone" in one end of the room leaving space at the other for a sofa/table/chill area etc.
 
Starting to come together.

Plastering next week, screed the following week, tiles 2 weeks after that. So I get to start fitting the kitchen at the start of September.

Which brings me onto hobs. We are going to go induction, but I really don't want to be stabbing buttons so I want some kind of knob control. Plus a venting hob as it's on an island and we don't want a great big extractor looming down from the ceiling.

2 Options are leading contenders.

Neff has a 2 year guarantee and the knob is magnetic so comes off for easy cleaning. To select a zone to control you have to press the edge of the puck that correlates to the zone and then rotate it. Grease filter can be dishwashed, odour filters have to be replaced.

Elica has a 5 year guarantee but the knobs are fixed (the covers come off). One knob for each zone plus one for general functions like timers/extraction control etc etc. It will make using it easier, but cleaning it slightly harder. Grease filters can be dishwashed so can odour filters! So no need to buy new filters.

I've seen the Neff in the flesh in a Wren display kitchen, never seen the Elica.

Both are very similar prices.

Anybody got 1st hand experience with either?

Neff V68AUX4C0

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Elica NikolaTesla Unplugged

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I'd be looking for one with many power levels like nef 90 range 17 I believe ... part of my requirement - can't see what those are specced at.

brilliant thread i read recently, on back of rangemaster induction post in just purchased
I used to work on countertop induction cookers. There are several questions in your original post. I'll try to take them in order.

"My question is: do all induction cookers work the same way? Are they “binary” like this? Pulse wave modulation?"

Most work this way at low power settings. An induction cooker basically has electricity sloshing back and forth through a coil at about 20khz to create a field. As you can imagine if you only put a few watts through the coil the field is very weak (too weak to interact with the cookware that is maybe 1cm away separated by glass). Instead, to simulate low power settings most cookers modulate on and off. Do "all" work this way? I hesitate to answer yes to any question like that, but it's pretty safe to say that all consumer grade, affordable countertop induction cookers work that way.

If an induction cooker is working at, say, 70%, does that mean it’s just going to run at 100% for 7 seconds and then turn off for 3 seconds?

As you get to higher power settings the on-off modulation is generally replaced by varying the amount of current going through the coil. At 70% I'd expect a high quality induction cooker to be on 100% of the time but to vary the current. The burners I worked on functioned in this manner.

And if so, is there a difference in quality between induction cookers? What would make one better than another? Or is it just a matter of what cookware I use?

Induction cookers (like any electrical device) vary greatly in quality. Electrical components, coil construction, algorithms... They can all be changed depending on the specific cooker. Most cheap cookers come out of an area around Guangzhou, China. Search on Alibaba and you'll see lots of manufacturers that offer models differing only in cosmetic appearance. Higher end units are often produced in Europe or the Americas. That doesn't mean you can't get a good cooker from China, just that you have to be careful.

The cookware you use does matter too. Make sure you are using something that is strongly magnetic to get the most heating possible. As an aside, Panasonic made an induction cooker that works with all types of cookware (aluminum and copper too) by greatly increasing the khz going through the coild. Search for Panasonic Met-All if you are curious.

Or do some of them have better algorithms? Would it be better if it heated up and cooled down more rapidly, like 100% for 0.7 seconds and 0% for 0.3 seconds?

This gets a bit more technical. "Better" is such a tricky word. There are several ways to turn high voltages on and off quickly -- relays, solid state relays, triacs, FETs... Which you choose comes down to money, speed, durability... Sure, you could turn on and off faster as you suggest for more even temperatures. The problem is you tend to wear out the switching components (this is also why your electric oven cycles on and off). As an engineer you try to optimize for the expected life of the product when developing the switching algorithm.

Should I just buy a thicker pot?

Maybe? If your goal is to simmer a stew very evenly over a long period of time at a low temperature a thicker bottomed pot will help greatly. The greater mass will dampen the on-off behavior of the burner (a cast iron dutch oven can be great for this). If you are trying to sear a steak thinner bottom cookware is often the best. The thinner bottom allows the induction cooker to quickly add heat to the cookware once you add the steak. In other words for searing you often want responsive cookware and for simmering you want dampening cookware.
but if you already have induction with appropriate multi-layer pans you probably know that.
 
We're just in the process of having something similar done, so interesting to see the choices made and how things are going. We've just had our plans done and sent off for building control/planning permission. We've currently got a tiny kitchen that is falling apart, but a huge utility room that is totally wasted space. We're extending out the back slightly to square it off and boxing off the utility room to add the space to the kitchen.
 
Been a while since I posted any progress.

Steels in, and we're all watertight and weather-proof. Painting finished (pictures are from before the weekend).

Screed going down tomorrow. Tiler booked for w/c 25/8, kitchen being delivered w/c 1/9

Taps - really don't want to buy cheap as they just leak quickly and you can't get parts for them. Any suggestions for good manufacturers?

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We went with Franke taps in both kitchen & utility (mainly on the recommendation of our kitchen supplier - IIRC they referenced getting parts was a big plus). Kitchen also has a Franke sink but a Rangemaster Belfeast in the utility.


We do like the pull-out flexi-bit for rinsing pots or the sink.

Best price we found was Builtin Kitchen Appliances in Liverpool. I emailed them the Franke part codes and had a quote back inside an hour

https://www.domestic-appliance.com/
[email protected]
 
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