Save the NHS!

[glenimp617]

This is what happens in a "want something for nothing culture"

Although I personally wouldn't mind an increase in my tax to pay for a better NHS.....IF, and I must stress the IF part, I'm getting value for money (ie: the tax isn't wasted on middle management).

The japanese boat race springs to mind

 

[wozencl]

He's single handedly destroyed the NHS.

.....

It's good to see people here don't have to resort to hyperbole to make a point.

 

[dlite]

Why don't we just increase the number of doctors? Takes half a decade to have an effect, but better start now.

Scholarship fund or something like that?

Doctors wouldn't need to work insane hours and we wouldn't need to pay quite as much as we now do, since there would be more competition for the jobs. Let me guess, doctors union is against increasing the number of medical student spots in universities?

 

[davisdavid]

as someone who has spent all last week in hospital (not me, my daughter), the NHS staff are absolutely over worked and under paid.

That said, I am confused over two things

In my mind, there is no difference between a saturday and a monday. If there is, it needs to be global (ie: Shop workers also included)

If they are tired, how does a pay increase solve it? I mean If I'm tired and my boss gave me an extra £5,000 a year.....I'm still tired

Then there is the real kicker. They knew what they were getting themselves in to.....now they are striking. When I applied for my job, it was £x,0000 salary. If I said to my boss, give me more money or I'll strike he will fire me lol

+1000

It's partially down to blind public support, once that decreases and it inevitably will, the strikes will stop and the contract will be accepted.

It amazes me (maybe because I just haven't seen it) that the media don't spring this question directly on whomever they interview on a picket line;

"You say it is unsafe to work 'unsociable hours' on a Saturday but then invalidate that claim by saying you want more money to work on a Saturday. Do you run on money, does it fuel you to be a better doctor?"

I agree with the fact that more should be done for NHS staff, personally I think a scheme should be in place wherein Uni debt is wiped if they obtain the degree/ qualification and serve a minimum period in the NHS dependant on role.

I find this strike action pitiful, the belief of an inherent right to more money (13.5%!) when these intelligent, educated people knew exactly what they signed up for at the time is pathetic and a sad but true reflection on a generation. It is unsociable at times and it is exhausting but the same can be said for dozens of careers, don't see how junior doctors are more deserving than soldiers, police, fire 'where's the picket line?' service, carers, coast guard etc etc.

It's a sad state of affairs when the Govt has to take a hardline response but in this case I'm fully onside with them, I don't see what choice they have because if they cave in to whatever astronomical demands the junior doctors want then you can be certain others will follow suit. The tube drivers only need to wake up on the wrong side of the bed to strike over their outrageously low 55k a year.

 

[Showboat]

+1000

It's partially down to blind public support, once that decreases and it inevitably will, the strikes will stop and the contract will be accepted.

It amazes me (maybe because I just haven't seen it) that the media don't spring this question directly on whomever they interview on a picket line;

"You say it is unsafe to work 'unsociable hours' on a Saturday but then invalidate that claim by saying you want more money to work on a Saturday. Do you run on money, does it fuel you to be a better doctor?"

I agree with the fact that more should be done for NHS staff, personally I think a scheme should be in place wherein Uni debt is wiped if they obtain the degree/ qualification and serve a minimum period in the NHS dependant on role.

I find this strike action pitiful, the belief of an inherent right to more money (13.5%!) when these intelligent, educated people knew exactly what they signed up for at the time is pathetic and a sad but true reflection on a generation. It is unsociable at times and it is exhausting but the same can be said for dozens of careers, don't see how junior doctors are more deserving than soldiers, police, fire 'where's the picket line?' service, carers, coast guard etc etc.

It's a sad state of affairs when the Govt has to take a hardline response but in this case I'm fully onside with them, I don't see what choice they have because if they cave in to whatever astronomical demands the junior doctors want then you can be certain others will follow suit. The tube drivers only need to wake up on the wrong side of the bed to strike over their outrageously low 55k a year.

Out of interest what do you do for a living? I'm guessing its nothing to do with the health service.

The government did not have to change anything. There will be no additional clinics run as a result of this, so you will not getting any extra coverage in a hospital than you are now.
Its pay cuts via the back door, and spin.. Spin it out that you can get more for the same, push it out to the papers and hopefully the public accepts it.
You seem to be one of those who have accepted it!

This change is not going ahead in Scotland / Wales.

 

[Danthus]

Where have the doctors asked for more money?

 

[philip2009]

I find this strike action pitiful, the belief of an inherent right to more money (13.5%!) when these intelligent, educated people knew exactly what they signed up for at the time is pathetic and a sad but true reflection on a generation. It is unsociable at times and it is exhausting but the same can be said for dozens of careers, don't see how junior doctors are more deserving than soldiers, police, fire 'where's the picket line?' service, carers, coast guard etc etc.

Unfortunately almost every time I see a doctor complaining about employment conditions they tend to give to have the air, to a greater or lesser extent, of entitled middle-class whiners - you can't change our conditions of employment you see we're special, oh so special.

A doctor, who is just about to become a consultant, posted elsewhere today that a third of his year at medical school are now "down under" - it costs between £270,000 to £565,000 train an NHS doctor, so obviously at least a third of his year are completely indebted and loyal to the UK health service ...

Doctors talk a good game but a lot of them are swayed by higher financial rewards for fewer hours and not just loyalty to patients.

 

[davisdavid]

Out of interest what do you do for a living? I'm guessing its nothing to do with the health service.

The government did not have to change anything. There will be no additional clinics run as a result of this, so you will not getting any extra coverage in a hospital than you are now.
Its pay cuts via the back door, and spin.. Spin it out that you can get more for the same, push it out to the papers and hopefully the public accepts it.
You seem to be one of those who have accepted it!

This change is not going ahead in Scotland / Wales.

In the Army, 11 years and counting . I know all about the pay cuts via the back door, the pay freezes, the pension cuts, the subsidies reductions, the redundancies, the impositions, the under manning, the publicity spins, the skewering of numbers, the paper soldiers. So forgive me if I appear a little hardened against empathy been sought by the junior doctors.

I'm not for one second claiming that there'll be additional clinics or a better service because that extends way beyond baby faced doctors but 13.5% pay rise is astronomical on it's own, then there is the extra pay for working just one in four Saturday's. I think they are just pushing for the sake of pushing now and the 'we'll vote with our feet' line, well lets see that happen when the first couple walk and get their 5 mins of fame before the rest realise that it's just not a viable option.

At the very least there could be a little bit of grace shown and hold their hands up and say, you know what, we've got a fairly good deal out of this, lets take what we have because there's no guarantee an imposition will have the same terms as we've just rejected. But no, the valiant fight against the oppresive government continues.

 

[platypus]

In my mind, there is no difference between a saturday and a monday. If there is, it needs to be global (ie: Shop workers also included)

There is a difference to me, and you wouldn't get me working Saturday's no matter how much you offered me.

 

[V F]

At the very least there could be a little bit of grace shown and hold their hands up and say, you know what, we've got a fairly good deal out of this, lets take what we have because there's no guarantee an imposition will have the same terms as we've just rejected. But no, the valiant fight against the oppresive government continues.

There was no grace when the government thought they deserved their 11% pay rise for doing heehaw. Over and above their expences.

 

[Danthus]

Lets be clear, they have been given a 13% increase in their basic pay. They have had rates cut for "anti social" hours.

So it is entirely possible that they may be worse off.

 

[platypus]

Unfortunately almost every time I see a doctor complaining about employment conditions they tend to give to have the air, to a greater or lesser extent, of entitled middle-class whiners - you can't change our conditions of employment you see we're special, oh so special.

A doctor, who is just about to become a consultant, posted elsewhere today that a third of his year at medical school are now "down under" - it costs between £270,000 to £565,000 train an NHS doctor, so obviously at least a third of his year are completely indebted and loyal to the UK health service

Doctors talk a good game but a lot of them are swayed by higher financial rewards for fewer hours and not just loyalty to patients.

Undoubtedly some of them are swayed by higher financial rewards, but I'd hazard a guess that those who do move abroad - Oceania is a popular destination - do it because of the way of life, the work life balance. And who are we to deny them that? If they can go and care for patients in a less stressful, target driven environment, I can understand why. Wouldn't you?

There was no grace when the government thought they deserved their 11% pay rise for doing heehaw. Over and above their expences.

The government didn't think they deserved an 11% payrise.

 

[Tunney]

I find this strike action pitiful, the belief of an inherent right to more money (13.5%!) when these intelligent, educated people knew exactly what they signed up for at the time is pathetic and a sad but true reflection on a generation.

Have you read the new contract? The 13.5% rise in basic pay is to offset the reduced period covered by unsociable hours pay. For many junior doctors, this is a pay cut, not a pay raise.

It is unsociable at times and it is exhausting but the same can be said for dozens of careers, don't see how junior doctors are more deserving than soldiers, police, fire 'where's the picket line?' service, carers, coast guard etc etc.

Basic pay for a qualifying doctor is £23k a year. Despite requiring an excellent academic record and seven years of training, that's about the same as a junior police officer.

 

[Buddy]

I'm not for one second claiming that there'll be additional clinics or a better service because that extends way beyond baby faced doctors but 13.5% pay rise is astronomical on it's own, then there is the extra pay for working just one in four Saturday's. I think they are just pushing for the sake of pushing now and the 'we'll vote with our feet' line, well lets see that happen when the first couple walk and get their 5 mins of fame before the rest realise that it's just not a viable option.

Well the spin certainly has worked on you.
2 pages back bottom post. It's a large paycut.

 

[V F]

The government didn't think they deserved an 11% payrise.

Oh my my my. How some people cannot see how devious government truly is. They handed it over to an independant body so the government could say it isn't up to them and nothing they can do about it. At the same time they are in their pocket.

 

[shadow_boxer]

Well the spin certainly has worked on you.
2 pages back bottom post. It's a large paycut.

This. Sadly this has been the governments tactics all along. I for one will be supporting and be prepared to go on strike again including emergency cover. As a junior doctor I feel betrayed and as if we are being demonized and stabbed in the back. Shame on Hunt.

 

[V F]

Shame on Hunt.

You couldn't shame any of them. No scruples.

 

[marshalex]

This. Sadly this has been the governments tactics all along. I for one will be supporting and be prepared to go on strike again including emergency cover. As a junior doctor I feel betrayed and as if we are being demonized and stabbed in the back. Shame on Hunt.

And I'll be supporting you in that and hopefully the majority of the public can see that, though I doubt when the tory press inevitably spin it that this is all the BMA's fault it will still be that way.

 

[rojones]

Error plz delete

 

[Werewolf]

Unfortunately almost every time I see a doctor complaining about employment conditions they tend to give to have the air, to a greater or lesser extent, of entitled middle-class whiners - you can't change our conditions of employment you see we're special, oh so special.

A doctor, who is just about to become a consultant, posted elsewhere today that a third of his year at medical school are now "down under" - it costs between £270,000 to £565,000 train an NHS doctor, so obviously at least a third of his year are completely indebted and loyal to the UK health service ...

Doctors talk a good game but a lot of them are swayed by higher financial rewards for fewer hours and not just loyalty to patients.

More likely they realise that they cannot afford to remain a doctor in the UK health system and have a family life and remain healthy themselves.

At the moment a lot of "junior" Doctors (who are fully qualified and often very experienced) are barely able to afford paying back their student loans, pay for their ongoing training, pay for accommodation and still have a family (IE pay for childcare).

If you've put yourself tens of thousands in debt to get a highly skilled job, are facing high ongoing costs in relation to that job, and get told that you're going to be getting less pay and that various safeguards in relation to your working hours are being reduced or removed, would you stay in that job when you could be financially better off (and more importantly have a life outside of work) in a less skilled job or moving abroad?

If Doctors were in it for the money, you would find far fewer doing unpaid hours or staying past the end of their shifts.

In many ways Doctors are like most of the emergency services staff, they go far beyond the letter of their contract in regards to where/when/what they'll do, Hunt and co would probably be in for a really nasty shock if even just a small percentage of the medical and emergency services staff were to start to work to the letter of their employment contracts as the health service relies heavily on the idea that medical staff will put patients first.