outfox the market - puzzled

Associate
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So few weeks back someone mentioned them and when i looked at the rates they were cheap - but now i am puzzled that they charge you a flat amount disregarding the readings? from my pov this is unacceptable, they have said it all works out because my energy bill will be higher in the winter but again this is all guess work/estimation not based on the actual readings.

so did i get this all wrong or?

Edit: actually re-reading it

The statements are a separate thing from the direct debit, we take the same amount each month and in the summer you will build up credit to cover for the higher winter statements.
but still how can they charge you more - what if i dont use that much energy in the winter or use too much..
 
Soldato
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This is exactly the same as pretty much any energy company. They take your expected spend over the year and divide by 12 to make your direct debit p/m which means some months you will pay more than you use, others you will pay less. If you were to choose to leave and you had overpaid due to them over estimating your usage you would get your money back.

I believe you can also ask for any credit to be repaid whilst still in contract if you happen to have built up far too much. I can't say for sure though as it's never happened to me.
 
Soldato
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Think of it like a separate bank account. You pay a fixed amount into that account each month and the energy bill is paid from that account.
Some months the energy bill will be lower and the account balance will go up.
Some months the energy bill will be higher and the account balance will go down.
After a year, it should all have averaged out and all the money paid into the account will have covered all of the energy bills.

edit: Just looked up their website. They make a big deal of "no standing charge" but you have to pay a monthly membership fee. For average usage that monthly fee works out at 35p per day. Surely that's just a "standing charge" by another name?

Rename to "Outfox the Customer"
 
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Associate
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So my understanding is that they work out your usage spend based on the kWh or amount you provide them during the sign up so if you pay £900 a year for electricity and gas then the monthly direct debit bill will be £75 but if some months I only use £60 then they will credit £15 back on the account however if I use £85 then I owe them £10, will that £10 be deducted from the credit on the account?
 
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Think of it like a separate bank account. You pay a fixed amount into that account each month and the energy bill is paid from that account.
Some months the energy bill will be lower and the account balance will go up.
Some months the energy bill will be higher and the account balance will go down.
After a year, it should all have averaged out and all the money paid into the account will have covered all of the energy bills.

edit: Just looked up their website. They make a big deal of "no standing charge" but you have to pay a monthly membership fee. For average usage that monthly fee works out at 35p per day. Surely that's just a "standing charge" by another name?

Rename to "Outfox the Customer"

That's also normal, although a more common practice is to charge a higher rate for the initial x units. There's always a standing charge, it's just that most suppliers obscure it and claim they're not charging it.

The monthly direct debit might or might not be accurate. At one point, my overpayments reached about £800. I didn't care, so I did nothing about it. Your description of it as being like a seperate bank account is a good one. I could have moved the overpayment money from it to my main bank account, but why bother? Neither pays interest and it made no difference to me which account it was in. I don't even know how much my overpayments are now.

So my understanding is that they work out your usage spend based on the kWh or amount you provide them during the sign up so if you pay £900 a year for electricity and gas then the monthly direct debit bill will be £75 but if some months I only use £60 then they will credit £15 back on the account however if I use £85 then I owe them £10, will that £10 be deducted from the credit on the account?

That depends on what you mean by "the account". You would have 2 accounts - a bank account and an energy supplier account. In your example, £75 a month would be transferred from your bank account to your energy supplier account. The billing period would probably be quarterly, so I'll use that in this example:

Month 1: Your energy supplier account now has £75 in it.
Month 2: Your energy supplier account now has £150 in it.
Month 3: Your energy supplier account now has £225 in it.

Your quarterly energy bill is now created. It's for £165.
The £165 is taken from your energy supplier account to pay the bill.
Your energy supplier account now has £60 in it.

Month 4: Your energy supplier account now has £135 in it.
Month 5: Your energy supplier account now has £210 in it.
Month 4: Your energy supplier account now has £285 in it.

Your quarterly energy bill is now created. It's for £130.
The £130 is taken from your energy supplier account to pay the bill.
Your energy supplier account now has £155 in it.

Etc. Ideally, the surplus built up during quarters of less energy use will be about the same as the extra cost incurred by using more energy in other quarters.

The money in your energy supplier account is still your money. You can have it transferred back to your bank account if you want. Some energy suppliers will do it automatically if there is a high enough surplus in your energy supplier account. Usually, the amount of the direct debit will be varied if there's a surplus or deficit. So if you were transferring £75 a month to your energy supplier account and it turned out that you were only averaging £60 a month of energy over the year and had built up a surplus of £180 over a year, your direct debit might be adjusted to £60 a month, or maybe to £50 a month until the surplus was reduced and then to £60. Or maybe not. Sometimes energy suppliers don't do that. You would also be able to change the amount of the direct debit yourself if you want to, almost certainly via the energy supplier website.
 
Associate
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Thanks guys.

With first utility - they actually charged me WHAT i was using (through readings, estimated (if i was lazy) or actual (and amount credited towards my next bill if my actual were lower than their estimate). My bill wasnt a fixed amount.
 
Associate
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Thanks guys.

With first utility - they actually charged me WHAT i was using (through readings, estimated (if i was lazy) or actual (and amount credited towards my next bill if my actual were lower than their estimate). My bill wasnt a fixed amount.

I still don't think you're quite understanding. The Outfox the Market bill won't be a fixed amount either. What is a fixed amount is how much they take from your account each month.

I've been with first utility before and paid them a fixed amount direct debit. My bills were based on estimated readings or actual like you say.

It just sounds like in the past, you've not set up a direct debit and have instead just paid each bill as it came due?
 
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Are there no suppliers that charge a variable DD based on your usage, like mobile contracts and the like?

We moved to OVO as it was going to bring our monthly bills down £15, but now we are actually paying more and just building loads of credit. We don't want credit, we want to spend less so we have more cash to clear debts :rolleyes:
 
Caporegime
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Are there no suppliers that charge a variable DD based on your usage, like mobile contracts and the like?

We moved to OVO as it was going to bring our monthly bills down £15, but now we are actually paying more and just building loads of credit. We don't want credit, we want to spend less so we have more cash to clear debts :rolleyes:

you will need that credit come winter time.

or phone up and ask them to reduce the direct debit amount if you think it's too much credit you are building up.
 
Soldato
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If you have meter readings that can cover a year, you can work out your annual usage. Ideally you don't really want to be more than two months direct debit's by the time you're in the middle of autumn.

I am a little under a month's worth in credit right now, as I joined at the beginning of the year which also happened to have some cold snaps. So this winter should be interesting for me if it turns out to be nasty, as I will probably need to increase my direct debit. I am, however, secretly hoping for a mild winter. ;)
 
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Are there no suppliers that charge a variable DD based on your usage, like mobile contracts and the like?

We moved to OVO as it was going to bring our monthly bills down £15, but now we are actually paying more and just building loads of credit. We don't want credit, we want to spend less so we have more cash to clear debts :rolleyes:

Maybe. It's not talked about much because not enough people care. OVO doesn't do it. You do have the option to manually pay your bill monthly in arrears, but not with a variable direct debit:

OVO's FAQ page:
If you’re on the Simpler plan, you can also pay by cash or cheque in arrears. You can pay over the phone (or on My OVO) with a card, via a bank transfer or by cash with a paying-in slip at your bank.
We no longer offer Flexible Direct Debit. And we don’t accept PayPal.

By the way, don't expect OVO to actually be £15 a month cheaper. Every energy supplier claims that they're the cheapest and that switching to them will save you £x a month/year. It doesn't mean anything.

If you believe OVO's story, then just log in to your OVO account and set your monthly direct debit to £15 less than what you were paying your previous energy provider or phone OVO and change the DD amount that way. OVO will have estimated your probable annual use based on what details it has about your home, some averages and some guesses. They'll adjust it over time as they get information about how much you're actually using, but you can change it yourself if you want.

OVO's FAQ page:
You can quickly and easily increase or decrease your Direct Debit payment in My OVO. However, if we haven’t been able to send you a bill recently (e.g. because of a reading dispute or meter exchange), you’ll need to call 0800 5999 440 or 01179 303 100 to make any changes.

On the plus side, OVO pays 3% interest on credit balances. Most energy suppliers don't pay interest on credit balances.

If you're in credit by at least £25 more than your monthly DD amount, you can have it back. You can do that through the website or by phone, as usual, but OVO will take up to 7 working days to pay. When I was oodles of cash in credit with Scottish Power, I had most of it back the same day. I think I could have had it all back, but I chose to leave a couple of hundred there. Although maybe OVO does usually pay the same day and states 7 days in their FAQ just in case.

If the amount of money involved is an issue, it might not be wise to have no credit in your OVO account because you'd then have relatively large bills to pay in the winter.
 
Caporegime
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Maybe. It's not talked about much because not enough people care. OVO doesn't do it. You do have the option to manually pay your bill monthly in arrears, but not with a variable direct debit:

OVO's FAQ page:


By the way, don't expect OVO to actually be £15 a month cheaper. Every energy supplier claims that they're the cheapest and that switching to them will save you £x a month/year. It doesn't mean anything.

If you believe OVO's story, then just log in to your OVO account and set your monthly direct debit to £15 less than what you were paying your previous energy provider or phone OVO and change the DD amount that way. OVO will have estimated your probable annual use based on what details it has about your home, some averages and some guesses. They'll adjust it over time as they get information about how much you're actually using, but you can change it yourself if you want.

OVO's FAQ page:


On the plus side, OVO pays 3% interest on credit balances. Most energy suppliers don't pay interest on credit balances.

If you're in credit by at least £25 more than your monthly DD amount, you can have it back. You can do that through the website or by phone, as usual, but OVO will take up to 7 working days to pay. When I was oodles of cash in credit with Scottish Power, I had most of it back the same day. I think I could have had it all back, but I chose to leave a couple of hundred there. Although maybe OVO does usually pay the same day and states 7 days in their FAQ just in case.

If the amount of money involved is an issue, it might not be wise to have no credit in your OVO account because you'd then have relatively large bills to pay in the winter.

Thing is, we know what our annual usage is as we have 3 years of data that has little variance.During the winter months we only use an extra £10 a month as the flat is so well insulated that we don't even turn the heating on.

So based on annual usage, it should be £45 a month for 12 months, and our actual usage since joining OVO in March has been a consistant £35 a month, but we are being billed £72 a month and have almost £300 credit built.

The 3% interest means nothing as using that money against our much higher rate credit cards would have a better net outcome. It's not that we can't afford it, we just want to use our money as efficiently as possible.
 
Soldato
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By the way, don't expect OVO to actually be £15 a month cheaper. Every energy supplier claims that they're the cheapest and that switching to them will save you £x a month/year. It doesn't mean anything.

If you've given them accurate estimates of your usage, you'll get an accurate quote.

They have to show you the rates up front (standing charge + unit cost) so it's easy to work out for yourself if you'd prefer.
 
Man of Honour
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Thing is, we know what our annual usage is as we have 3 years of data that has little variance.During the winter months we only use an extra £10 a month as the flat is so well insulated that we don't even turn the heating on.

You know that. OVO doesn't. So they will have estimated based on average use for very superficial knowledge of your home. It seems that your energy usage is much lower than average for a whole load of flats roughly similar to yours in whatever criteria OVO uses to group flats. Which might be as little as only the number of bedrooms.

So based on annual usage, it should be £45 a month for 12 months, and our actual usage since joining OVO in March has been a consistant £35 a month, but we are being billed £72 a month and have almost £300 credit built.

The 3% interest means nothing as using that money against our much higher rate credit cards would have a better net outcome. It's not that we can't afford it, we just want to use our money as efficiently as possible.

So log into your OVO account, have £200 transferred back to your bank account and change the direct debit to £45. 5 minute job.
 
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