Ships under attack in the middle east

Over Clocker · 21 Jul 2019 at 22:51

Another thought...

The 4.5 inch naval gun on all Royal Navy frigates and destroyers... Would it really be that much of an outrage to fire a shell as a warning shot in the general direction of but not at the Iranian boats which took the tanker?

Minusorange · 21 Jul 2019 at 23:07

Dis86 said:
There's a submarine on its way. Becomes very risky to try and take ships when you don't know if that's lurking nearby or not.

What's a submarine going to do to small boats and helicopters ?

Malevolence · 21 Jul 2019 at 23:26

Dis86 said:
There's a submarine on its way. Becomes very risky to try and take ships when you don't know if that's lurking nearby or not.

Can't see the sub being of much use other than a lurking deterrent to the wider Iranian navy becoming involved. The IRGC's navy has no ships/boats that would be worth wasting an expensive torpedo on.

Dis86 · 21 Jul 2019 at 23:33

Minusorange said:
What's a submarine going to do to small boats and helicopters ?

Well the spearfish torpedoes will make a mess of boats.

They also carry more than just weapons.

Minusorange · 22 Jul 2019 at 00:14

Dis86 said:
Well the spearfish torpedoes will make a mess of boats.

They also carry more than just weapons.

Torpedo's aren't very effective against small gun boats though unless you expect them to torpedo the tanker they're trying to hijack ?

Also in order to get men out, they would have surface where they would be spotted giving the game away, unless you think they're going to do some James Bond stealthily attaching mines to the small boats shizzle ?

Rroff · 22 Jul 2019 at 00:40

Sea Spear would be a better bet - atleast in tests they successfully engaged multiple rib-craft sized surface boats with >90% success IIRC. Maybe a bit overkill/expensive but they'd soon stop up against it.

Rroff · 22 Jul 2019 at 00:48

Over Clocker said:
Question: are there any decommissioned or mothballed Royal Navy ships sitting around which could be pressed back into action, or have they all been sold now to Brazil etc?

They don't tend to leave older ships mothballed apparently as you quickly lose the skill/experience and spare parts supply needed to use them making it less useful to keep in reserve.

What we could really do with is a faster combat version of the Echo class - as the Type 23s, etc. are overkill really for this role and we struggle for the manpower - stick some rapier installations on them for anti-air work, sea spear to use against fast swarming targets and their helicopter and patrol boat carrying capabilities would be useful plus they are able to carry mine detection, etc. equipment. They are also designed for high manoeuvrability which would make them a harder target against missiles or attack by smaller craft.

StriderX · 22 Jul 2019 at 01:35

Rroff said:
They don't tend to leave older ships mothballed apparently as you quickly lose the skill/experience and spare parts supply needed to use them making it less useful to keep in reserve.

What we could really do with is a faster combat version of the Echo class - as the Type 23s, etc. are overkill really for this role and we struggle for the manpower - stick some rapier installations on them for anti-air work, sea spear to use against fast swarming targets and their helicopter and patrol boat carrying capabilities would be useful plus they are able to carry mine detection, etc. equipment. They are also designed for high manoeuvrability which would make them a harder target against missiles or attack by smaller craft.

Lol never going to get past any egotistical defence sec. if it aint big, it's useless to gloat about and therefore isn't happening. With how awful the calibre of Ministers have gotten...

Malevolence · 22 Jul 2019 at 02:03

One thing I never understood is why we, as in the Royal Navy, don't build corvettes any more. A few corvettes stationed in, and around, the Persian Gulf and armed specifically to counter small, fast attack craft would be ideal for this task.

Rroff · 22 Jul 2019 at 02:12

Malevolence said:
One thing I never understood is why we, as in the Royal Navy, don't build corvettes any more. A few corvettes stationed in, and around, the Persian Gulf and armed specifically to counter small, fast attack craft would be ideal for this task.

Echo class is a little bigger than a traditional corvette but I don't understand why they didn't build a few combat variants at the same time as the survey ships for this kind of role - economies of scale and all that it probably wouldn't have been hugely more expensive.

I think one of the reasons is we struggle for manpower these days in the Navy so the thinking has been to concentrate it into higher end ships rather than more ships.

EDIT: Though on that note we had 3 people where I work that were temping for us waiting to go in the RN and ended up going into other careers due to their intake just getting pushed back and pushed back, a big factor seemingly incompetence.

The Funktopus · 22 Jul 2019 at 07:58

Malevolence said:
One thing I never understood is why we, as in the Royal Navy, don't build corvettes any more. A few corvettes stationed in, and around, the Persian Gulf and armed specifically to counter small, fast attack craft would be ideal for this task.

If only we’d have kept these. Modernised, they would’ve been ideal for the present situation we face with Iran.

Randomface74 · 22 Jul 2019 at 08:02

Are subs faster than destroyers?

Dis86 · 22 Jul 2019 at 08:06

billysielu said:
Are subs faster than destroyers?

Generally no.

dowie · 22 Jul 2019 at 08:09

The Funktopus said:
If only we’d have kept these. Modernised, they would’ve been ideal for the present situation we face with Iran.

We've got something like that - the OPVs

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/our-or...ms/surface-fleet/patrol/river-class/hms-forth

stockhausen · 22 Jul 2019 at 08:38

The Funktopus said:
If only we’d have kept these . . .

If only Agent Orange hadn't decided to renege on Obama's Iran nuclear deproliferation deal out of sheer spite.

Still, at least the nutter wants to keep his snout out of the Middle East :rolleyes:

Dis86 · 22 Jul 2019 at 09:17

Minusorange said:
Torpedo's aren't very effective against small gun boats though unless you expect them to torpedo the tanker they're trying to hijack ?

Also in order to get men out, they would have surface where they would be spotted giving the game away, unless you think they're going to do some James Bond stealthily attaching mines to the small boats shizzle ?

Torpedoes are perfectly effective. Especially considering the speed at which they can move but equally that they're controllable.

As for giving the game away, what's your point? The whole point is you don't know where they are until they're there. That leaves the enemy little or no time to react before the individuals on board the sub have targeted them with man portable launchers.

englishpremier · 22 Jul 2019 at 10:44

Dis86 said:
Generally no.

A nuclear sub can travel at close to 50knts if it wanted to. With sustainable speeds of 30-40 knts

Danny75 · 22 Jul 2019 at 11:31

BowdonUK said:
I was just reading the latest, and hearing the audio conversations.

I'm in principle against a war with Iran. But their actions have become more and more pro-active and seem to be edging closer to a conflict. If the UK/US stormed an Iranian boat like they did, I think all hell would break loose. A real shame they are falling for the tricks that the war-mongers want.

No video has been released of the capture of the Grace 1. But here's Dominic Waghorn's account:

The way Iran seized the Stena Impero speaks volumes. Boarded using a helicopter and military speedboats, then ordered into port.

That is exactly what happened to the Grace 1 Iranian supertanker seized by Gibraltarian forces just over a week ago.

Iranians will like the symmetry of the two operations.

This was a proportional response they will say. And don't think you are the only ones who can seize tankers.

The Iranians have even released footage of their operation which seems a carbon copy of the Royal Marines' seizure of the Grace 1 earliest this month, including special forces fast-roping from a helicopter onto the deck of the tanker.

https://news.sky.com/story/the-two-...ing-by-seizing-uk-flagged-oil-tanker-11767283

Don't necessarily believe that's what happened but at the same time I don't think Dominic was just making all this up and some source will have told him. The other thing is the Royal Marines weren't there just for fun, and to politely ask if the Grace 1 would cooperate and if told no then head back to land for a cup of tea and biscuits. They were there to get a job done.

FTM · 22 Jul 2019 at 11:34

the navy is skint and undermanned, they are not going to spend money torpedoing small boats

dowie · 22 Jul 2019 at 11:45

Danny75 said:
Don't necessarily believe that's what happened but at the same time I don't think Dominic was just making all this up and some source will have told him. The other thing is the Royal Marines weren't there just for fun, and to politely ask if the Grace 1 would cooperate and if told no then head back to land for a cup of tea and biscuits. They were there to get a job done.

What don't you believe?

What else do you think the Royal Marines were there for if not to get a job done?

You're not making much sense here - that some ships have been seized by both the UK and Iran isn't in dispute, yes both sides made use of a helicopter and small boats in achieving this. The UK did it with a legal basis and to fulfil EU sanctions, Iran did it illegally and in order to seek revenge on the UK... albeit they ended up with an empty Swedish vessel and some Indian hostages so not much revenge served in the end other than the PR aspect.

Ships under attack in the middle east

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