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Behave. If that was true I'd not have bought one let alone two, as a decent interior is pretty much top of my list.
Are german cars still considered premium?
- Thread starter Dominic-Toretto
- Start date
Behave. If that was true I'd not have bought one let alone two, as a decent interior is pretty much top of my list.
Soldato
You thought the build quality was poor?
The entertainment system is a joke agreed.
The entertainment system is a joke agreed.
Now I've heard it all
I've had the misfortune to receive Infiniti's as rental cars when I've tried to hire a proper Luxury vehicle. I'm not even sure there is any point discussing it with you if you actually think that. Infiniti InTouch for example is a hilarious joke.
Soldato
why don’t you buy a panamera the quality of that car is way better than any others on the market.
Because I can't afford one.
Soldato
This is true, it’s so average in its class and not outstanding in my opinion.
To be fair, that one has done 150,000 miles
Soldato
Mine has 55k and it wasn’t a masterpiece.
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I have damaged my VW Polo 3 door as I have broken the handle off the door that slide the seat forward. The petrol cap door has also snapped off. I am not a strong or angry person or anything. Ha.
I think if VW want to up their prices and compete with Audi they need to improve.
I think if VW want to up their prices and compete with Audi they need to improve.
That video has to be an outlier, surely? A Friday afternoon special or something. I can't imagine any car interior being that bad, regardless of manufacturer, even at 150K miles.
I'm not even convinced it's real, the creaks are so loud and pronounced that they sound like they have been dubbed over the image.
Soldato
I'm just getting rid of a late 2015 f11 (5 series touring) on 48k miles, I'm it's second owner and I look after it.
In terms of rattles, creaks and squeaks, it's awful. Genuinely.
Any estate style car usually creaks a little more than a saloon, they are less rigid due to design and simply having a floppy roller blind cover at the back is a recipe for creaks. Saying all of that, this is the first car where I have been compelled to buy a roll of sticky felt and I have used most of it over the past 2 years (it's next owner is going to get a surprise if they dig to far into anywhere there is hard scratchy plastic trim touching hard plastic scratchy trim, i.e. everywhere).
There are rattles deep in both doors, the passenger side seat belt rattles very loudly against the door pillar, unless you get it in exactly the right place (which it never is), I have to lubricate all the rubber seals every 3 or so months or most of them squeak whilst driving. You can pull most of the interior trim apart with very little effort (good for applying sticky fuzzy felt), even the fake plastic silver metallic finish on the two most touched draws in the car in the centre console are only held on by clips, no actual fixings, my toddler simply slide one off the other day (luckily I caught it and was able to click it back on).
The leather on the drivers side seat is wearing in two places, I don't get in and out of the car heavily, but the painted finish is back to the cheap underlying leather face, I've had to buy a leather touch up kit and re-apply it very 2 or 3 months because they are less than permanent.
I think a huge part of the problem is that they have swapped to collapsible fixings for most car interiors these days, partly out of cost, partly for aesthetic (harder to hide a proper screw than a plastic lug fixing) and partly to make them pass safety tests. Mixed with a general reduction in quality of tactile materials, probably to meet targets and also because cars are now throw-away commodities due to the fact so few actually own one (you feel like a second class citizen in most BMW dealerships if you "own" your car I've found, probably because you question all those stupid extra charges that people who lease/pcp don't because they know if they don't do what the dealer says then they might be in trouble). This is also likely combined with the fact most German luxury spec vehicles are all running on hard suspension, with huge wheels and no flexibility in the tyre side wall as they are all run-flat. My current one is an M-Sport with 19" wheels and while it looks awesome (in my opinion) my next car will have smaller, floppier wheels, that's for absolutely sure. It's an estate car at the end of the day and, like most people, I live my life in traffic.
The current one is worse than my last 2012 f10 but I suspect that's more down to the change to a touring than anything else (plus the fact it was an SE spec so softer suspension and "only" 17" tyres). However a recent 3 week stint in a brand new G31 hasn't sold my that they have improved things. Can't comment on the other big German brands as I have no experience but I can tell you that this will be my last BMW for a while, I've had 3 in a row and this last one has really killed the brand for me both in terms of perceived quality and the dealer network.
And don't get me started on the fact that BMW think it's OK to sell a 40k+ car with no folding wing mirrors and a 6 speaker "set-up" that doesn't even include tweeters as standard. £600+ of options to fix those two items. They think we're utter mugs here in the UK (and going by the amount of new BMW's on the road, we must be...)
In terms of rattles, creaks and squeaks, it's awful. Genuinely.
Any estate style car usually creaks a little more than a saloon, they are less rigid due to design and simply having a floppy roller blind cover at the back is a recipe for creaks. Saying all of that, this is the first car where I have been compelled to buy a roll of sticky felt and I have used most of it over the past 2 years (it's next owner is going to get a surprise if they dig to far into anywhere there is hard scratchy plastic trim touching hard plastic scratchy trim, i.e. everywhere).
There are rattles deep in both doors, the passenger side seat belt rattles very loudly against the door pillar, unless you get it in exactly the right place (which it never is), I have to lubricate all the rubber seals every 3 or so months or most of them squeak whilst driving. You can pull most of the interior trim apart with very little effort (good for applying sticky fuzzy felt), even the fake plastic silver metallic finish on the two most touched draws in the car in the centre console are only held on by clips, no actual fixings, my toddler simply slide one off the other day (luckily I caught it and was able to click it back on).
The leather on the drivers side seat is wearing in two places, I don't get in and out of the car heavily, but the painted finish is back to the cheap underlying leather face, I've had to buy a leather touch up kit and re-apply it very 2 or 3 months because they are less than permanent.
I think a huge part of the problem is that they have swapped to collapsible fixings for most car interiors these days, partly out of cost, partly for aesthetic (harder to hide a proper screw than a plastic lug fixing) and partly to make them pass safety tests. Mixed with a general reduction in quality of tactile materials, probably to meet targets and also because cars are now throw-away commodities due to the fact so few actually own one (you feel like a second class citizen in most BMW dealerships if you "own" your car I've found, probably because you question all those stupid extra charges that people who lease/pcp don't because they know if they don't do what the dealer says then they might be in trouble). This is also likely combined with the fact most German luxury spec vehicles are all running on hard suspension, with huge wheels and no flexibility in the tyre side wall as they are all run-flat. My current one is an M-Sport with 19" wheels and while it looks awesome (in my opinion) my next car will have smaller, floppier wheels, that's for absolutely sure. It's an estate car at the end of the day and, like most people, I live my life in traffic.
The current one is worse than my last 2012 f10 but I suspect that's more down to the change to a touring than anything else (plus the fact it was an SE spec so softer suspension and "only" 17" tyres). However a recent 3 week stint in a brand new G31 hasn't sold my that they have improved things. Can't comment on the other big German brands as I have no experience but I can tell you that this will be my last BMW for a while, I've had 3 in a row and this last one has really killed the brand for me both in terms of perceived quality and the dealer network.
And don't get me started on the fact that BMW think it's OK to sell a 40k+ car with no folding wing mirrors and a 6 speaker "set-up" that doesn't even include tweeters as standard. £600+ of options to fix those two items. They think we're utter mugs here in the UK (and going by the amount of new BMW's on the road, we must be...)
Caporegime
Why would VW want to compete with Audi? That seems a strange use of two brands owned by the same group.
My car is exactly the same age and mileage as yours - albeit a saloon not a touring.
There are no rattles or squeeks from the interior save for the rear seat base sometimes flexing against the ISOFIX mounting. The leather is showing zero signs of wear - but I've had the car since 5k miles and looked after it.
My previous one was a 2010 and my 2015 is an improvement in almost every way. The 2010 constantly had an issue where the leather on the seat creaked against the plastic seat base, which was cheap and nasty. It drove me mad and I was very relieved to find they'd fixed it on the facelift.
The only area of quality which winds me up about my 2015 model is the M Sport steering wheel. Looks great but the stupid trim on the lower spoke is cheap, nasty and noisily flexes. The 2010 car wheel was absolutely rock solid, as is the steering wheel in every other car on the planet.
I completely agree with you on this, but sadly the UK market is awful and doesn't care.
Our market is obsessed with bling - spec takes a back seat, its all about massive wheels, black trim, M PERFORMANCE stickers, etc etc. Elsewhere in Europe people tend to specify the cars much better - you see much more substance and much less style.
Most used G30 are low spec cars with few options but massive 20 inch wheels. Great.
Soldato
I do sometimes feel like mine is one of these fabled "Friday cars" (never really thought that was a thing given quality control but this one might have swayed me).
That's not to say it isn't reliable, it is and other than a EGR failure (and then a recall after they replaced it with the none updated version) it has had no mechanical faults to speak of, I just get in it and hear every single rattle and clunk, I've probably become overly sensitive.
That doesn't detract that if you dig not very far you will find some truly awful materials for what is meant to be a 40k+ car.
Just have a look at the plastic trim under the driver seat, enjoy how it is only attached by a couple of very flimsy clips (mine popped off one day when I went over a speed hump and then I spent 45 minutes clipping it back on and lost lots of skin on my knuckles).
I'm not suggesting other brands are better just that brands like BMW are notably worse than they used to be, at least in my personal opinion but their prices aren't coming down, that's for sure.
To add to the list of reasons I won't be getting a fourth BMW, the complete lack of 12-24 month old stock with folding mirrors is utterly shocking. Simply put, I need that £300 extra that literally nobody ticked as I park in a garage and without it have 1.2cm of space to spare...
Caporegime
I certainly don’t think current BMW’s are as well built as previous models, it’s like the accountants rule the design brief rather than the engineers these days which I’d not be surprised to hear is true , it stands to reason to a degree.
My old e38 felt solid and despite its years it had no squeaks or rattles from the trim - my then partners approved used low mileage f20 was the polar opposite, sure the 7er was a top of the range car whereas a 1er is entry level but still, this is supposed to be a premium manufacturer, the 12 plate Focus she changed for the 1er was free of said squeaks despite being a run of the mill non premium brand that was 5 years old and had covered 55k miles.....
The thing that really erks me with BMW is their failure to address problems that have beset their cars for generations, a classic example being the dreaded final stage resistor (hedgehog as they are known) for the heater blower, it was a guaranteed failure on early e series cars like the e34 5 (I remember my dad having dodgy fans in both his e34’s) , the problem cropped up again with the e39 then the e60 and guess what? Yup, f10 resistors are starting to give up the ghost, it’s like nobody at BMW has noticed this reoccurring fault across the years or perhaps they enjoy the proceeds from spare part sales? Probably they just don’t care.
“Sealed for life” gearboxes are another bugbear, ZF for example recommend fluid changes as routine maintenance for their gearboxes, BMW - and in fairness other manufacturers - choose to ignore this basic mechanical requirement in some markets as by the time the box dies the car is no longer their (warranty) problem which is great for the customers down the line isn’t it?
Whilst some BMW dealers are excellent they seem very much in the minority in my experience.
You pay a premium for a German car certainly but it seems very much luck of the draw if your ownership experience is what you’d expect of a premium product.
My old e38 felt solid and despite its years it had no squeaks or rattles from the trim - my then partners approved used low mileage f20 was the polar opposite, sure the 7er was a top of the range car whereas a 1er is entry level but still, this is supposed to be a premium manufacturer, the 12 plate Focus she changed for the 1er was free of said squeaks despite being a run of the mill non premium brand that was 5 years old and had covered 55k miles.....
The thing that really erks me with BMW is their failure to address problems that have beset their cars for generations, a classic example being the dreaded final stage resistor (hedgehog as they are known) for the heater blower, it was a guaranteed failure on early e series cars like the e34 5 (I remember my dad having dodgy fans in both his e34’s) , the problem cropped up again with the e39 then the e60 and guess what? Yup, f10 resistors are starting to give up the ghost, it’s like nobody at BMW has noticed this reoccurring fault across the years or perhaps they enjoy the proceeds from spare part sales? Probably they just don’t care.
“Sealed for life” gearboxes are another bugbear, ZF for example recommend fluid changes as routine maintenance for their gearboxes, BMW - and in fairness other manufacturers - choose to ignore this basic mechanical requirement in some markets as by the time the box dies the car is no longer their (warranty) problem which is great for the customers down the line isn’t it?
Whilst some BMW dealers are excellent they seem very much in the minority in my experience.
You pay a premium for a German car certainly but it seems very much luck of the draw if your ownership experience is what you’d expect of a premium product.
A bit like how some European manufacturers have started leaving engine oil in for 2 years. Even though other (more reliable) brands using the same stuff say one year and so does the oil manufacturer
They don't care because when it blows up the warranty will have expired. Or it ties in with the company's green credentials...
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Soldato
IIRC you’re quite knowledgeable about such things: what do you think about the 20k engine oil intervals or “sealed for life” transmissions used by most manufacturers nowadays? Having seen oil that’s come out of a car every 10-12k miles, 20k seems unwise to me assuming you’re planning on putting 150k+ miles on a car. I change engine oil every 10k and transmission oil every 60k regardless of what the manufacturer guidelines say. In your opinion, am I wasting my money?