Solar panels and battery - any real world recommendations?
- Thread starter GinG
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I started off with Quotes as under, and these seem amazing really,
All Facebook adverts
Tesla
16x Aiko 475w Panels
2x Power Wall 3s
for £15495
+ 1k extra for tesla Gateway
Tesla was my initial preferred option.
Then I discovered Signestor!
Sigenery
20 x 450w panels
6kw invertor
18kw Sigenstor
@ £12750
I'm now looking at pulling the trigger on
30x 460w Bifacial panels
12kw Invertor
18kw Sigenstor (2 x Batteries) can add another for £2k
25kw DC vehicle charger
Sigen Gateway
Bird guard things!
All fitted £18995
I think this is a steal! tell me if I'm wrong?
Not yet pulled the trigger as I've 2x Major UK installers coming back to me with their best prices.
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Offer to self finance e.g pay cash/credit card ands sort your own financing out, they'll jump on you and get you a discount
What’s your real world expected payback? That’s how I am thinking about it when looking at costs
Be VERY wary of facebook ads for solar. It’s very likely the job will be subcontracted to the lowest bidder and you’ll get a rough as nails bodge job install.
I really don’t see the point of the 25kw DC charger at the moment. This is particularly on single phase as it’s restricted by the 12kw inverter without drawing from the batteries which you don’t want. If you are on single phase the most you can draw from the grid is between 18w and 23kw. So even if you had a big enough inverter, you couldn’t even fully utilise it or charge your batteries at the same time or power anything in your house.
Yes it’s V2G ready but there is zero certainty it will actually be supported by anyone. It’s a lot of risk to be taking on the promise of a future upgrade that may not materialise. The standard may well be AC based, no one actually knows yet. Dare I say it, the DC charger is very much a gimmick at the moment for home use and never buy anything on the promise of future functionality.
Stick to AC charging via a well supported charger like a hypervolt or a Zappi IMO.
Sig is nice but it’s also probably the most expensive system on the market. You could get more for less elsewhere.
£19k for a 30 panel and 18kwh battery install is very expensive when you take a step back and look at what you are actually getting.
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30x 460w panels with bird guard, 12kW inverter and 18kW Sig batteries and gateway should be possible to get below £15k with the right installer. £19k is actually pretty steep even with the DC charger.
Also be aware the Sigenergy chargers are not compatible with Octopus Intelligent Go yet.
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That likely will be, but no guarantee, or how long. I believe Sigenerygy is now compatible with Intelligent Flux, but if you have an EV you really want intelligent go
I’m not sure this is a given, the GivEnergy were the first company alongside Tesla to be enrolled into Intelligent flux and neither of their car chargers are supported on intelligent go.
I’m going to take a punt and say there are a hell of a lot more GivEnergy chargers out there in the wild than Sig chargers, particularly the DC one.
Giv definitely want ther charger to be supported by IOG but it’s never happened. The barrier for the Tesla charger is almost certainly Tesla themselves, it’s not really geared up for the U.K. market.
Intelligent Flux compatibility just came last week. IOG compatibility has been promised for ages, but I doubt Octopus are in any rush yet. The number with Sigenergy chargers will be a small percent of those with Sigenergy installs, so it'll be very low numbers. Hardly worth their while at the moment.
I agree, hence I said no guarantee or how long.
But the fact that they've integrated Intelligent Flux means there is channels of communication open between Octopus and Sigenergy, making EVSE integration a little more likely.
Intelligent Flux for Sigenergy was up and running in mid December, it was being trialed back in November and probably earlier - source Octopus Forums.
But the fact that they've integrated Intelligent Flux means there is channels of communication open between Octopus and Sigenergy, making EVSE integration a little more likely.
Intelligent Flux for Sigenergy was up and running in mid December, it was being trialed back in November and probably earlier - source Octopus Forums.
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One of the companies was Facebook advert, but a big installer, all their own guys(I believe did a lot of installs for Octopus)
I've had cheaper quotes from a (Chorely based firm)for 20 x DMEGC 450w bi panels, and 2x Sig 10 Batteries and 12kw inverter. Approx £13k
I was surprised the quotes ramped up as much for basically another 10 panels and a charger, but I suspect this is due to it then being a multiday install.
Now, thinking the bigger solar system is expensive, I probably got carried away!
Thinking level-headed now, so my initial idea is,
With Sigenstor, I can scale this up as I'm extending the house in the summer, and going down the route of an AirSourced heat pump + underfloor wet system downstairs, and I want to be as self-sufficient as we can be, e.g not be paying £185 per Month(gas and elec)
I thought 20 x 450 panels and circ 20kwh batteries won't allow us to run the 7kw heatpump 27/4 without buying in extra power, hence my idea of more panels initially(people say get more panels from the off)
But I'm now thinking, start smaller and use the sigenstors best feature, its scalability!
I will also be going electric EV very soon, maybe not until the house is finished, as I travel a lot with work and they pay me circa £300 per month via 0.45ppm claim back on business mileage. I'll scrap my old banger and get a used EV - Hyundai Ioniq 5.
My thoughts on the 25kw DC is that it'll charge the car - but the secret is the bi-directional battery feature, where we then use the EV battery to sell it back to the grid when I don't need that.
Use a Tarif where I can sell back and rep the SEG rewards all whilst my work has effectively bought me a car that I use to travel a couple of days per week, which costs me pennies to run but work still gives me 0.45ppm.
Then in summer, we go Air Source heatpump, all done at the same time we rip the guts out of the house, and more than likely fit another battery, taking us to 27.3 kwh of storage as we'll need it with the heatpump
I can still do this with the initial smaller setup of £13k, I've discussed with the installer initially about leaving the 4th MPPT on the Inverter activated, as we'll then end up with a 4m x 3m south-facing roof that is ripe for a new solar array that will plug straight into the 4th free MPPT!
I believe I can probably get 6x 450w panels on this roof as we'll build it as an in-roof system from the off.
I assume this is the more sensible route: 20x solar panels now, split across east and west roof, with 20kwh battery.
Once we've extended, we add an additional 6x panels, which are south-facing and have more battery installed.
Does this sound more like it?
e,g 13k now and later more batteries(2k per Sigenstor 10) and more Solar on South roof(might see if I can diy this and get local signoff).
I appreciate that there are cheaper and bigger batteries out there(Fogstar etc), but they're not in Tesla's or Sigenstor's league when it comes to simple ease of use(the wife will also have to use it all), nor do most have the smart app functions. Also, the Sigenstors DC Charger does V2G with several cars currently working - top of my list is a Hyundai Ioniq 5 or the Kia Ev6 as unfortunately, the Tesla Model 3 can only do V2G with beta firmware(rumours say it'll never be activated), as they also do Powerwall and in rolling it out will kills PW3s Market.
What part of using it do you mean? I don't honestly understand where by family members will need to interact with the charging and discharging of batteries etc. You configure it set it up and monitor, you get alerts if required.
I can count on one hand the number of times that we've had an issue that required any form of interaction, and it was mainly turning something off and on again. An actual smart system is one that you don't mess around with, but you setup correctly in the first place, I personally couldn't spend £1000's more for convenience in use but less actual energy storage and more reliance on peak grid electric then, and I dumped a GivEnergy system for a better solution.
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Do you have an alternative solution to the system? Am I am open to alternatives?
Are there any cheaper options out there?
I really like the sound of the Sigen 25/12 KW DC Charger as it does V2G or V2H battery share with the car(my work inadvertently will subsidise buying) I'm not aware of any other System that can do V2X in the UK ?
I would recommend going for a many panels as practical, and adding in the other roof when built. Batteries are easy to add later, and cheap on labour costs as it doesn't take long, adding more panels means more scaffold and higher labour costs, so better to do in one go where possible.
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That was my initial thought, but there seems to be a massive jump from installing 20 panels to then 30panels. I'm assuming that due to it being a 2x day install.
I've a couple of local installers in York who are highly rated, i'll reach out to them before committing,
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Days to install depends on man days required, its a funny metric
Mine was a one day install but had 5/6 guys
I hear of others with 2-3 day installs but 2 guys etc
Different installers will do different works and want different rates for the labour and hidden costs
Mine was a one day install but had 5/6 guys
I hear of others with 2-3 day installs but 2 guys etc
Different installers will do different works and want different rates for the labour and hidden costs
Is one Oval Renewables, always been impressed with their Youtube Content? Is more scaffold required for the additional panels?
https://ovalrenewables.com/
This is a relitivly sensible price.
Don't size your system based on max demand from a heat pump, it's cheaper to buy some units for the 30-40 days from the grid when you need it then to buy batteries which sit idle for 10-11 months of the year.
The most my heat pump uses in a day is about 35kwh but 30+% of that is off peak electrcity, its a 6kw daikin. The coldest days of the year also tend to be the sunnist and the more solar panels you have, the less batteries you need. On days like yesterday where it is 8C+ outside, it used 10kwh and >40% of that was off peak. You get way more days like this than the 30kwh days per winter.
The bi-directional feature isn't the secret, there is zero garantee it will work in the way you expect it to in any reasonble length of time. You'll need both a comparible car, charger and energy supplier for this to work and we are still years away from this becoming a reality.
As mentioned, the EV charger is limited by the inverter, in your instance is 12kw, this is the max it can pull from the grid. While it is charging your car, it can't also charge your batteries at the same time. This is a problem because all the EV charging tariffs with good export rates restrict you to around 6 hours of EV charging per day and most of this will happen across the cheap off peak period.
Likewise manufactueres which have V2G like VAG have restricted it by putting a limitation on how much you can actually send back to the grid without voiding the battery warranty (VAG is 10,000kwh lifetime IIRC).
It's also £3,500 - that is a hell of a lot of energy you'd need to send back to the grid for this to be financially viable. I would only spend money on this once it's actually working and it makes sense, right now its being installed by people that have more money than they know what to do with. As you say, its a drop in add on.
Right now I am very sceptical - can you tell?
I would install as many solar panels as you can in first instance. Solar panels add far more value than battieres and they have a lower upfront cost to realise the benefits.
I really wouldn't get too excited by V2G yet - it's not supported by anyone currently. It's very much a wait and see and as it stands, the financials simply don't stack up.
As I understand it the Sigenergy DC EVSE uses DC directly from the batteries and/or solar, so is not directly limited by the size of the inverter. However if you've only got 25 kWh of batteries (for example) you'd empty them in an hour, of course the inverter could supply some power, as would solar if its sunny.
Given the stackable nature of the Sigenergy system this would be very easy to add later if required, as it just slots into the stack.
I think the way things work at the moment you're better off with an AC charger, Octopus Intelligent Go is one of the best tariffs for an EV and if you get slots outside the off peak period you'll want to be charging the house batteries as quick as possible, which you won't be able to do if the car is DC charging.
Given the stackable nature of the Sigenergy system this would be very easy to add later if required, as it just slots into the stack.
I think the way things work at the moment you're better off with an AC charger, Octopus Intelligent Go is one of the best tariffs for an EV and if you get slots outside the off peak period you'll want to be charging the house batteries as quick as possible, which you won't be able to do if the car is DC charging.
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All the quotes I got earlier were for a powerwall with backup, if you go back a few pages