Magistrate walks out of court in veil row

Dolph · 29 Jun 2007 at 19:34

Azagoth said:
Shouldn't be allowed to wear them in this Country fullstop. If she wants to dress like some retarded cloth Dalek then she can bugger off to a Country that forces her to under the pain of whatever medieval torture is the flavour of the month!

Do you want to change the British way of life because of these people? We're a nation that believes in freedoms, why would you want to make us into a nation who doesn't? Isn't that one of the biggest complaints about most Islamic countries?

I can think of plenty of places where they aren't appropriate, and have no problem whatsoever with people asking for them to be removed, but banning something just for the sake of it really isn't very British (well, at least it wasn't before New labour, but that's another argument)

VIRII · 29 Jun 2007 at 19:34

Dolph said:
Do you want to change the British way of life because of these people? We're a nation that believes in freedoms, why would you want to make us into a nation who doesn't? Isn't that one of the biggest complaints about most Islamic countries?

We also believe in not covering your face.

Azagoth · 29 Jun 2007 at 19:38

For religious reasons I could see some leeway being given, but there's nothing in their 'religion' that says a woman should be veiled.

I can't walk around in a balaclava just becasue my girlfriend say's I should, no matter how much she protests :rolleyes:

, I'd get pulled up by the law! If I walk into a bank with my bike helmet on I'm asked to remove it and the balaclava (in Winter), they are not asked to remove those Dalek hoods.

Dolph · 29 Jun 2007 at 19:38

VIRII said:
We also believe in not covering your face.

We do, however you're still free to do it in most situations, even though it would be looked on unfavourably. I can wear a crash helmet walking down the street if I want, or a balaclava. Neither are banned. I may be asked to remove it in a shop, bank or whatever, and I've already said twice I have no problems with allowing people to refuse entry to those who refuse to uncover their face. We do not have laws requiring faces to be uncovered, and nor should we.

Dolph · 29 Jun 2007 at 19:40

Azagoth said:
For religious reasons I could see some leeway being given, but there's nothing in their 'religion' that says a woman should be veiled.

I can't walk around in a balaclava just becasue my girlfriend say's I should, no matter how much she protests , I'd get pulled up by the law! If I walk into a bank with my bike helmet on I'm asked to remove it and the balaclava (in Winter), they are not asked to remove those Dalek hoods.

That's a failing of the bank, as I've said several times in this thread, I'd have no problem with banks insisting the veil is removed, nor do I have a problem with insistance on the veil being removed in court.

However, we do not have laws banning you from wearing these things, which is what you suggested.

lemonkettaz · 29 Jun 2007 at 19:40

This is england! this is how we feel..

yeh.. bit of anarchy on your behinds!

Its all a load of tripe... ID yourself.. lift your veil up for a minute

VIRII · 29 Jun 2007 at 19:42

Dolph said:
We do, however you're still free to do it in most situations, even though it would be looked on unfavourably. I can wear a crash helmet walking down the street if I want, or a balaclava. Neither are banned. I may be asked to remove it in a shop, bank or whatever, and I've already said twice I have no problems with allowing people to refuse entry to those who refuse to uncover their face. We do not have laws requiring faces to be uncovered, and nor should we.

Do we have to enshrine all of our normal behaviour in some sort of strict religious law in order to rightfully expect people to not wear a veil in court?
Sounds to me that if we want to maintain normality we'll have to legislate for it.

Azagoth · 29 Jun 2007 at 19:44

I've been arrested and spent the night in the cells before, just because I was wearing a balaclava. Many Winters back when we had the last 'real' snow that was at least 5' deep and gusting. They police wouldn't listen to reason and arrested me under some public order act!

Then again, I am the person who got sent to court for drunkeness when I don't even drink!

Dolph · 29 Jun 2007 at 19:47

VIRII said:
Do we have to enshrine all of our normal behaviour in some sort of strict religious law in order to rightfully expect people to not wear a veil in court?

No, we should just have to tell them to remove it or find them in contempt if they refuse, the legislation is already there for that.

Sounds to me that if we want to maintain normality we'll have to legislate for it.

I'd happily support legislation to ensure it's legal to require removal of the veil where it's appropriate on state owned premesis, and protecting the right of private individuals and businesses to request removal of the veil on their property, as well as employers to not allow employees to wear them.

The only thing I wouldn't support is a total ban, as it's draconian, unnecessary, pointless and totally against all our traditions.

cleanbluesky · 29 Jun 2007 at 19:55

Yeeeeeeeeeesssssss, send them back!

Hold on, you mean 'we' actually say that. Oh.

cleanbluesky · 29 Jun 2007 at 19:56

Dolph said:
The only thing I wouldn't support is a total ban, as it's draconian, unnecessary, pointless and totally against all our traditions.

How can something without a specified aim be 'pointless'. You claim it is against our traditions but I say that it is dead in line with our tradition, of ending sexism and inequality. Would it be as draconian as not being able to wear balaclavas in public?

Kingburger · 29 Jun 2007 at 19:59

ElRazur said:
To echo the words of dirtydog. Send them back (in this instance)

To be honest, I'm for all people of African origin to be sent back. Went to London recently, and I couldn't even park my car without looking over the shoulder

The magistrate in this case was unprofessional, I hope she sues the pants off them to protect her human rights, we are a democracy after all

Azagoth · 29 Jun 2007 at 20:00

Kingburger said:
To be honest, I'm for all people of African origin to be sent back.

Does that include white Africans or just the black buggers? :rolleyes:

Kingburger · 29 Jun 2007 at 20:01

Azagoth said:
Does that include white Africans or just the black buggers?

The criminal element

Dolph · 29 Jun 2007 at 20:02

cleanbluesky said:
How can something without a specified aim be 'pointless'. You claim it is against our traditions but I say that it is dead in line with our tradition, of ending sexism and inequality. Would it be as draconian as not being able to wear balaclavas in public?

You can wear a balaclava in public :confused:

There are no laws against it, although there are some laws that, depending on your behaviour, could be used by the police.

With regards to sexism and inequality, we take measures to ensure people aren't forced to do things due to their gender by the state or their employer. We do not enter people's private lives and dictate what they can and cannot do unless there's violence involved.

cleanbluesky · 29 Jun 2007 at 20:03

Kingburger said:
To be honest, I'm for all people of African origin to be sent back. Went to London recently, and I couldn't even park my car without looking over the shoulder

That's just good practice for a reverse park

ElRazur · 29 Jun 2007 at 20:04

Kingburger said:
To be honest, I'm for all people of African origin to be sent back. Went to London recently, and I couldn't even park my car without looking over the shoulder

No problem it just so happens that accidentally loads of white folks in africa would be found dead in mysterious circumstances.

Kingburger said:
The magistrate in this case was unprofessional, I hope she sues the pants off them to protect her human rights, we are a democracy after all

Perhaps he did but he was right to show his protest imo. Her case would be a proper test ground for religion and the state tbh, i cant wait for it to happen.

manoz · 29 Jun 2007 at 20:06

cleanbluesky said:
That's just good practice for a reverse park

lol, but true.

cleanbluesky · 29 Jun 2007 at 20:08

Dolph said:
You can wear a balaclava in public There are no laws against it, although there are some laws that, depending on your behaviour, could be used by the police.

Try wearing one in a bank.

With regards to sexism and inequality, we take measures to ensure people aren't forced to do things due to their gender by the state or their employer. We do not enter people's private lives and dictate what they can and cannot do unless there's violence involved.

The veil is a nebulous issue as whilst the effect is clear, the expectation to wear it is not immediately associated with violence or direct threat.

My question is whether it is better to intervene in such situations. Is it fair for women to opress themselves all they want?

lemonkettaz · 29 Jun 2007 at 20:09

is that guy saying african origin people should be sent back for real??