27" 1080p with good blacks and OK gaming

I'm still looking at 32" HDTVs to use as a PC monitor. Cheap 1080p TVs are anywhere from £300 to £400 depending on features. Naturally, as well as a decent PC monitor you can also watch HD telly on it...

But before I go that route, and it seems I'd have to spend £380 at least, I thought I'd have one look back over my shoulder into PC monitor land.

As you know, I sent my U2412M back as the backlight bleed/glow in the corners kept drawing my eyes to it, ruining any hope of watching movies on the thing.

So I'm primarily after something with good, deep, uniform blacks, even when viewed slightly off-angle. Then for the light amount of gaming I do (mostly MMOs and other slow-paced games), a half-decent response time and low(ish) input lag. The rest of what I do is all internet/office stuff.

I'm not after any resolution above 1080p as it would kill my graphics card (GTX460 1GB).

I'm still leaning heavily towards a TV attached to my PC, but I thought maybe someone here would talk me out of it if it really isn't a smart idea

I would consider Samsung S27A650D or BenQ EW2730.

They have a MVA panel which have better blacks than IPS and TN panels. Also no IPS white glow.

Went down to Curry again today. Stood in front of the 32" TVs there and thought "how on Earth am I going to use a screen *this big* as a monitor?" They really are massive

Now when I said "good blacks" what I really meant is "good black uniformity". Although dark blacks would be nice, I think it's more important that they be uniform across the screen, so that it doesn't distract me.

Now, am I right in thinking that an AU Optronics A-MVA panel represents a good compromise between IPS and TN? From what I've read, the A-MVA panels have less blurring and ghosting than a S-PVA, better blacks than an IPS, and are acceptible for gaming on?

Then there's uniformity. That really isn't affected by panel type, is it? Or is it? I hear edge-lit LED backlight TV/monitors suffer much more (such as my previous U2412M). Since I can't afford a full LED-array screen, would CCFL guarantee better uniformity?

So many questions... but basically I'm after a good all-rounder screen with great black uniformity, without spending £500. (£300 - £400 is the budget). I'm not playing twitch games like Unreal, so I'm ruling out TN and not making response time/input lag my main priority, but obviously I don't want something that sucks completely for gaming.

Firstly to clear something up. It is a common misconception that WLED backlighting predisposes a monitor to poorer backlight uniformity (one that seems to spread like wildfire over on certain other forums) especially when comparing like-for-like panels. It is true that some WLED-backlit monitors tend to go a bit overboard on the thinness and this can make them more susceptible to damage that could increase excess backlight bleed-through and cause luminance uniformity issues. Such problems are very widespread on CCFL-backlit consumer models as well and if an individual has used a goodly number of modern monitors of similar sizes and grade and can draw meaningful comparisons this becomes abundantly clear. The excess backlight bleedthrough is often exacerbated by the blue colour emitted from the LED backlight, though, and this is generally more noticeable than the same level of bleed-through on a CCFL-backlit model.

The U2412M isn't particularly weak in terms of black uniformity compared to comparable CCFL backlit models. The U2311 and to a lesser extent the U2410 were notoriously poor in this regard and coupled with IPS glow this is quite a significant weakness - but one which has very little to do with backlight type. One of the best modern IPS panels I have tested when it comes to low levels of excess backlight bleed is the NEC EA232WMi - but this is variable between units and some are poorer in this regard. Same goes for the U2412M and as I've pointed out in your previous threads on the topic our review sample had a surprisingly uniform backlight (unavoidable IPS glow notwithstanding).

Light behaves differently in different panels types, so it follows that some have visibly better (and more uniform) blacks. VA panels are particularly good at blocking light (hence the strong contrast) and although they exhibit the usual variability between units they tend to have more uniform blacks and peripheral black depths superior to the central blacks of even the best TN panels. Given this the VA panels would probably be a good place to look if this is what you're after. I believe you have read our review of the EW2430 (or EW2420) as this seemed to be a model you were considering a few months before getting the U2412M. You are right that the MVA panels generally have stronger pixel performance than PVA panels but as you will see in the review it is the high contrast transitions that are still a struggle on these. As you've found out with the U2412M the potential problems are more of an issue for some people than others so you'd really have to see how you get on with them yourself. It would be excellent if you could walk into your local Curry (or pasta or what have you) and try these out but the high street is often deprived of such wonders.

P.S. I hope to review the EW2730 and Samsung SA650 series in the not too distant future but existing smaller VA panels should be fairly representitive of their performance. Larger panels do tend to suffer more from uniformity issues but you should be relatively safe in this department with VA panels. You probably have some idea of what to expect from some of the VA panel TVs which would be pretty much "worst case" examples due to their size and brightness they would be set it in showrooms.

Found this on HardForum: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1645885

Disclaimer for the noobs: I know they can be enticing but i do not recommend that monitor/display noobs use a TV as their main monitor, unless they are willing to deal with the following drawbacks:

- Text will not be as sharp due to larger pixel size.
- Blacks are not as deep on TV IPS panels, or can appear crushed on VA based displays. Colorshift can be more of an issue due to display size, depends on the panel type though.
- Flashlighting in the corners is always a concern, especially in LCD's that have edge-lit LED backlights.
- They are not plug and play, you'll be ripping your hair out trying to get everything to look right. Tweaks are required for both the PC and in the TV menu. Many tend to give up at this point and return their TV.
- "Low Input Lag" on a TV is still almost always higher than with traditional PC monitors. So take the phrase "Low Input Lag", in the context of this discussion, with a grain of salt.
- It's rare for TV's to accept the native resolution over their VGA input, so it's usually HDMI or nothing.
- DPMS support is rare, so the TV will need to be powered on and off separately from your PC. Certain manufacturers, including Sony, have DPMS support over their VGA inputs.
- if it seems like i'm trying to dissuade you from using a TV as a monitor, then i've probably gotten my point across.

Click to expand...

Now none of these points individually would be a deal-breaker, but it did make me realise one thing. What I'm actually looking for probably isn't a TV as much as it is a monitor.

Whilst a TV can make SD pictures (like a DVD) look better, I'm pretty sure that a PC could do that equally well in software (I have to do some research on FFDShow - apparently it makes DVDs look a lot better than WMP or VLC... apparently).

Now I'd narrowed my list of TVs down to two models, and neither really meet my exact needs.

The LG 32LK450U is only a 4:4:4 display with low input lag - BUT - only if you get the IPS variant. I don't even *want* an IPS variant I saw the VA variant in a store and was distinctly unimpressed (but we all know stores don't set them up very well).

The Sony 32CX523 is better spec'd than the LG, but whilst it would be a kick ass monitor in most regards, apparently the lag is pretty bad at 50ms (or more).

This has left me reconsidering my requirements.

Essential:
27"-30" size.
1080p resolution. No higher, no lower. Higher makes text too small for me.
VA or VA-like panel (anything but IPS and its horrible glow in the corners). Not sure if I want TN+film in a 27" (is TN colour shift worse than VA gamma shift?)
HDMI support (will be used with consoles and probably a freeview PVR).
Low input lag. 0-20ms max.
Dead pixel guarantee. Don't want any visible defects, simple as that

Prefer:
Low power consumption. LED considered if uniformity is good (most edge lit aren't good).

Quite fancy if available:
PIP (gimmick in reality)

Thankfully, with monitors, I don't have to worry about:
1:1 pixel mapping
4:4:4 support
RGB support
Sound quality (prefer monitors without speakers, not essential tho).
Freeview HD tuner (it's not a TV!)

So there we have it. Everything now comes down to price and how many of my criteria I can hit. Budget is still less than £300. £350 for the *perfect* display.

I'll be doing more research now into PC monitors, but obviously any input in this thread is gratefully received

Oh and a quick question:

Do VA monitors suffer as badly from the "black crush" as VA TVs?

A lot of these questions and the guidance you need has already been given to you. I know this because I have personally spent a lot of time dealing with your questions and giving detailed posts such as that above in this thread but you seem to be going around in circles. I know it's frustrating but you won't find the guidance you require on that [H] forum I can assure you. You will end up more confused and less likely to buy ANYTHING for fear that it will be rubbish. The backlight, panel colour attributes, ability to use DSR (no need to worry about pixel policies from the off) - all covered. I know you are trying to rationalise and think out loud but you are going to have to make the decision. You've got all the ammunition you need already.

PCM2, is there a chance you've got me confused with someone else? A couple times now you've referred to previous discussions that I don't remember Like this:

PCM2 said:

I believe you have read our review of the EW2430 (or EW2420) as this seemed to be a model you were considering a few months before getting the U2412M.

Click to expand...

I don't remember this part at all... The first time I looked at those was after you posted the above :/

There are a couple posters on here with similar names.

Possibly! I do apologise. I was recommending an EW2430 to somebody with a very similar name to you (at least - had an animal) . They were after good blacks and good black uniformity. I then saw that you had purchased the U2412M and were unhappy with it based on IPS glow and poor backlight uniformity on dark areas (understandable) and thought you had gone against that recommendation and then were back to square one.

I think the advice on the [H] forums is generally best avoided as you will find a lot of conflicting advice and will often end up leaving there more confused than when you started. The points made on the 'TV' vs. 'monitor' are good ones though which I largely agree with. I think you have probably narrowed down your choice to a VA panel monitor (which is good) and if that's the case I wouldn't worry about backlight type. Actually I wouldn't worry about it at all. Some of the best monitors of that size I've seen as far as uniformity on blacks goes have been edge-lit LED designs. Modern VA panel monitors of that size and resolution will all use this type of backlight and it's not something that should put you off. The issues you experienced with the Dell apply equally to Dell's previous UltraSharps of similar sizes and it's not something the backlight type had anything to do with. I would certainly have a read of the EW2430 review on our website as it gives a really good idea of what to expect from a VA panel monitor. Short of actually using one in person I think this is the best you can hope for (no bias there of course ). I've been after the EW2730(v) and the new Samsung SA650 series for a while but have had no luck getting them thus far. I don't expect the performance to be anything other than a scaled up version of this as mentioned in the previous post. The EW2430 review will be useful in answering your questions regarding VA gamma shift vs. TN panel colour shift and giving a flavour of what to expect from the blacks and contrast in general. The performance was not hampered by 'black crush' and suchlike that you get with some PVA panels, either, which was another of your concerns.

The 27" 1920 x 1080 VA panel is a fairly new fangled thing which is why you won't find many reviews knocking about and why it may be best to look at reviews of smaller but otherwise similar models. And sorry again for confusing you with somebody else.

No worries. Was just concerned I might be posting in my sleep, or something

FoxEye said:

The LG 32LK450U is only a 4:4:4 display with low input lag - BUT - only if you get the IPS variant. I don't even *want* an IPS variant I saw the VA variant in a store and was distinctly unimpressed (but we all know stores don't set them up very well).

Click to expand...

Foxeye, have you seen the IPS version of the 32LK450U in action? It seems to tick all your boxes *except* for the allegedly poor black levels and white glow, and personally I think these "problems" are way overstated, at least with the 42" version I'm looking at right now. You've described the IPS corner glow as "horrible", but I think it might be a mistake to write off the entire technology based on one experience, which may have been a particularly bad example of the breed.

Trying to make a decision based on what you see in shops is an exercise in complete futility - apart from the fact that the sets will be in torch mode and the quality of the input signal will be variable, setting up an LCD display is a time-consuming process where seemingly minor adjustments can have a huge effect on perceived image quality.

If I were you I'd order one from Richard Nixons (when I last checked they still had stocks of the Y variant) and take advantage of the 7-working-day DSR period to evaluate it properly - don't make a decision after one or two days, spend a bit of time getting to know the set, and how all the various adjustments interact with each other. If you order for delivery on a Thursday or Friday that will give you two full weekends as well as the intervening week to decide whether or not to cancel... if it doesn't work out, well, at least you'll know and you'll have lost nothing but a bit of time (the shop I'm referring to will collect for free).

The post from [H] is absolutely bang-on BTW in my experience, which is not to say you *can't* get very good results... it just takes time and patience, both in configuring the equipment and (if necessary) trying out different makes and models.

CaptainCrash said:

Foxeye, have you seen the IPS version of the 32LK450U in action? It seems to tick all your boxes *except* for the allegedly poor black levels and white glow, and personally I think these "problems" are way overstated, at least with the 42" version I'm looking at right now. You've described the IPS corner glow as "horrible", but I think it might be a mistake to write off the entire technology based on one experience, which may have been a particularly bad example of the breed.

Click to expand...

As a quick update to this thread, I've spent a few days trawling the retailers in my local area, only to find that *no one* stocks the IPS variant. And a few had run out completely, and were only offering the updated edge-lit LED model (LV450U). As well as being more expensive, the LED model offers no 4:4:4 mode.

Also I've read now in many places that the *VA variant of the LK450U does not do 4:4:4 either, so I had been specifically looking for the IPS screen. Well, looks like they don't make them, and the supply in the channel has run out. Online vendors like Amazon are selling the *VA variants too.

*

Now the only reason I was after a TV in the first place is the crazy prices of PC monitors. They want to charge as much for a smaller TN monitor as you would pay for a larger VA/IPS TV! What the heck is that about? The TV is bigger, has more electronics inside, so should surely be more expensive?

Yet Acer et al want £250+ for their 26/27" TN screens, and yet brands like LG and Sony are offering 1080p 32" TVs for the same amount. That's why I turned to TVs, and that's why I'm a bit gutted I'm being forced to turn back to dedicated monitors.

With monitors you pay more and get a lot less :/ At least if you're only looking for 1080p rez. And I don't want a higher res screen.

Hmm, here's food for thought: two prices from the same vendor...

Samsung SA650D 27" 1080p monitor: £337
Samsung LE32D550 32" 1080p TV: £322.

The TV is allegedly a 4:4:4 compatible unit.

What reason is there to pay more for less and get the monitor? The only reason I can think of is if you actually think 32" is *too* big.

But even then, why pay *more* for less?

Hi FoxEye,

I made a similar post like yours as I am also looking for a new 27" monitor.

You replied on my thread saying you were going to purchase a 27" VA panel, any updates?

I have spent hours reading online trying to find the best monitor that I can use on my computer and also for watching 720p/1080p movies. It is very hard to find something that does both. My budget is a bit higher at £550, but prefer to spend as less as possible.

What do you think of the Samsung S27A650D 27" MVA panel?

akashi,

If a good deal comes along for the Benq EW2730 then I will pick one up.

If not, there are reports of 120hz VA panels coming from AUO this year, which apparently started production last year. So sometime soon we could be seeing 120hz monitors. The other stated claim of these new panels is 5000:1 static contrast and 12ms response (without overdrive!)

Given that the Benq/AUO v0 panel is I believe 25ms without overdrive, these new panels should be a whole lot nicer.

PCM2 can correct me if I'm wrong about any of this

[edit: the thing that puts me off the various Samsung models is the reported backlight leakage which plagues them. It's readily apparent if you have a look on YouTube, that they can have abysmal levels of leaking]

PCM2 said:

A lot of these questions and the guidance you need has already been given to you. I know this because I have personally spent a lot of time dealing with your questions and giving detailed posts such as that above in this thread but you seem to be going around in circles. I know it's frustrating but you won't find the guidance you require on that [H] forum I can assure you. You will end up more confused and less likely to buy ANYTHING for fear that it will be rubbish. The backlight, panel colour attributes, ability to use DSR (no need to worry about pixel policies from the off) - all covered. I know you are trying to rationalise and think out loud but you are going to have to make the decision. You've got all the ammunition you need already.

Click to expand...

I like this post... it reminds me of when people are like wait for the next generation of this and the next generation of that... find a good review from somewhere you trust - purchase for a reasonable price - live happily ever after!

Thanks FoxEye for pointing out the BenQ EW2730!

In terms of specifications, both the BenQ EW2730 and Samsung S27A650D are very similar. BenQ has 2x HDMI, DVI-D and VGA and whereas the Samsung has Display Port, DVI-D and VGA.

Cheapest price for the BenQ I have seen is £270 and £311 for the Samsung.

Unfortunately, I cannot find much information of user experience on the BenQ. Given it features an edge-lit LED, I am sure it has some bleeding?

Think I am going to be getting either one of these this weekend.

Thanks.

I'm also looking to get 3 27inch monitors for portrait eyefinity, 3240x1920, but still looking for some that come with good panels and arent too expensive. Will also be looking to pick up another GPU for crossfire, which means a new case and motherboard. The search continues...

SAMSUNG S27A650D is a good choose

the search for a 27" decent panel seems one of life's mysteries

Even when a 27" with IPS or VA and amazing blacks with 3D and 120hertz comes out will still be equally as confusing.... guess that's something to look forward to