15 Minute Cities

[Chuk_Chuk]

No, people need to stop driving when its not necessary. A huge amount of journeys that people take are completely unnecessary to use a car for. The roads are full of people with a single person in the car. They are full of people who are driving a mile to the shops because they can't be arsed to walk or cycle. One of my mates works about 800m away from his house. He drives. He drives in the middle of summer. Its pure laziness.

Yes there are plenty of people that need to drive to work. If you took away the 20% (probably being generous here) or more that don't, the roads would be absolutely fine.

I suspect the vast majority of journeys are people commuting which is very much a necessary journey. You are seriously underestimating the number of people who need to drive to work. Assuming an average speed of 10mph a 15 min commute is still 2.5 miles.

As to people doing their shop on the way home, I imagine thats a tiny proportion of people.

i don’t know why you would think that.

 

[OspreyO]

I would rarely do a big shop on the way home from work. Don't remember ever doing it. A drop in to pickup a handful of things maybe. But I'd have to divert off my route to go the shop. I pass none on my commute. Guess that will be different for anyone.

A tiny % of my families car mileage is commuting. Again that's different for everyone.

I'd say over my working life only about 20-30% of my jobs I used the car to commute. I never thought about it before.

 

[Kenai]

There are various transport surveys and studies conducted with the expected varying results but one set of figures that sticks out from a recent one because they're presented quite clearly:

In 2024, the average car in the UK clocked a mere 7,100 miles—a stark contrast to the bustling days of yore when drivers would easily cover over 9,000 miles annually. This decline of about 22% since 2004 reflects not just changing lifestyles but also significant shifts in how we approach work and leisure.

You might wonder what’s behind this drop. Well, it seems that business driving has taken a substantial hit—plummeting by an astonishing 64% from an average of 1,100 miles per year down to just 400. Commuting habits have shifted too; once averaging around 2,700 miles annually before the pandemic, they now hover between 2,200 and 2,300 miles as remote working becomes more commonplace.

If commuting and business mileage is making up (on average) 2,700 (2,300+400) of an annual 7,100, the implication is that 4,400 miles are 'social, domestic and pleasure' type driving. Or to look at it in percentages, just under 40% of miles driven in cars are for commuting or business purposes. This is lower than I expected.

The problem with commuting mileage - it all happens at the same time.

 

[fez]

I suspect the vast majority of journeys are people commuting which is very much a necessary journey. You are seriously underestimating the number of people who need to drive to work. Assuming an average speed of 10mph a 15 min commute is still 2.5 miles.

A necessary journey doesn't equal a necessary car journey. 2.5 miles is nothing on a bike. 2.5 miles is absolutely nothing on an ebike. In fact, I would wager that a lot of journeys for work that are under 5 miles would be just as fast or faster on an ebike.

i don’t know why you would think that.

Because a lot of people have families to get home to and the last thing they want to do after a day at work is go to do the weekly shop. As I also said, there are plenty of easy adjustments to make to do your weekly shop online. I don't know anyone that does weekly shops who does it on the way home from work. People who pick up stuff for dinner most night might do but they could do that on a bike as well.

 

[Kenai]

i don’t know why you would think that.

Whilst far from a scientific exercise, if you look at the little graph of when a place is busy on Google, on week days my local supermarket is very quiet before 9am and after 6pm - it's by far busiest during early afternoon peaking around 3pm to 4pm - which suggests that not that many people are actually doing weekly shops on their way home from work during the week.

 

[OspreyO]

A necessary journey doesn't equal a necessary car journey. 2.5 miles is nothing on a bike. 2.5 miles is absolutely nothing on an ebike. In fact, I would wager that a lot of journeys for work that are under 5 miles would be just as fast or faster on an ebike.



Because a lot of people have families to get home to and the last thing they want to do after a day at work is go to do the weekly shop. As I also said, there are plenty of easy adjustments to make to do your weekly shop online. I don't know anyone that does weekly shops who does it on the way home from work. People who pick up stuff for dinner most night might do but they could do that on a bike as well.

It's not always that simple.

While I might cycle to the train or work. When I get home I might be using the car because I'm dropping different kids to different sports (for example) and we car pool so often is not just my kids and some of those locations are not cycle friendly. Ironically.

Sometimes it's just being squeezed for time. It's just not possible to fit everything in timewise if I was to cycle.

That said we don't use the cars a lot.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

There are various transport surveys and studies conducted with the expected varying results but one set of figures that sticks out from a recent one because they're presented quite clearly:



If commuting and business mileage is making up (on average) 2,700 (2,300+400) of an annual 7,100, the implication is that 4,400 miles are 'social, domestic and pleasure' type driving. Or to look at it in percentages, just under 40% of miles driven in cars are for commuting or business purposes. This is lower than I expected.

The problem with commuting mileage - it all happens at the same time.

What constitutes business miles and why has it plummeted?

I think you’ve done your maths wrong. I don’t think you should add business miles on. Though that doesn’t change your point.

I’m surprised it is only 40% of miles driven. That means people are doing some serious mileage on the weekends.

Side note assuming people go in 5 days a week. That’s a 4.5 mile one way journey to work on the lower end of the figure.

A necessary journey doesn't equal a necessary car journey. 2.5 miles is nothing on a bike. 2.5 miles is absolutely nothing on an ebike. In fact, I would wager that a lot of journeys for work that are under 5 miles would be just as fast or faster on an ebike.

I do think the government should do more to encourage motorbike and e-bike usage. Though last I checked they also needed to crack down on thefts.

Because a lot of people have families to get home to and the last thing they want to do after a day at work is go to do the weekly shop. As I also said, there are plenty of easy adjustments to make to do your weekly shop online. I don't know anyone that does weekly shops who does it on the way home from work. People who pick up stuff for dinner most night might do but they could do that on a bike as well.

I consider paying someone to shop on your behalf a luxury and therefore not an actual solution.

Whilst far from a scientific exercise, if you look at the little graph of when a place is busy on Google, on week days my local supermarket is very quiet before 9am and after 6pm - it's by far busiest during early afternoon peaking around 3pm to 4pm - which suggests that not that many people are actually doing weekly shops on their way home from work during the week.

I checked a few stores i pass on my commute home. I see close to a peak around the same time. With a slow tapering off as it gets later.
3-4 is generally the school run though you will get people who leave early to beat the traffic.

From the ones I’ve looked at There does seem to be decent footfall during rush hour with one shops almost being flat from 3 till 7 on a Tuesday.

 

[Kenai]

What constitutes business miles and why has it plummeted?

Generally speaking, for a normal '9 to 5' it would be driving from one office to another for a meeting or training or something.

It will have plummeted because people got used to doing those meetings on Teams during Covid, so now they don't drive to another office for an hour long meeting.

I think you’ve done your maths wrong. I don’t think you should add business miles on. Though that doesn’t change your point.

I’m surprised it is only 40% of miles driven. That means people are doing some serious mileage on the weekends.

Side note assuming people go in 5 days a week. That’s a 4.5 mile one way journey to work on the lower end of the figure.

It's all based on averages, so some people will be hybrid working, commuting 2 or 3 days, some will be WFH and all their mileage is social use etc.

Whether you include business or not, as you say, it's much the same point - general domestic usage of cars appears to make up the majority of miles driven (on average).

It doesn't necessarily imply a lot of the other mileage is at weekends either - a lot of that social usage will be during the week too and it could be virtually anything - taking kids to school/scouts/clubs, going for a haircut, going to the shop, going to the doctor, going to the gym, going to see friends etc. etc.

 

[That Jekka Gal]

No, people need to stop driving when its not necessary. A huge amount of journeys that people take are completely unnecessary to use a car for. The roads are full of people with a single person in the car. They are full of people who are driving a mile to the shops because they can't be arsed to walk or cycle. One of my mates works about 800m away from his house. He drives. He drives in the middle of summer. Its pure laziness.

Yes there are plenty of people that need to drive to work. If you took away the 20% (probably being generous here) or more that don't, the roads would be absolutely fine.

As to people doing their shop on the way home, I imagine thats a tiny proportion of people.

All of the issues have solutions and just require some adaptation. Get a food delivery. Walk or cycle to your local shop to pick up a few bits you are missing.



Huh, how is this restricting our free movement remotely? Are they banning you from leaving your "zone". Are they telling you that you can't travel at certain times etc? Who do you think actually benefits from this that is co-opting the movement/idea? Small businesses? Green spaces? Big bike or big trainer?

I ride a recumbennt bicycle and I am far from the lazy stereotype of a lazy driver who drives 100 yards to the corner shop.

However, I would much prefer a carrot solution over the stick - more subsidies on eBikes, good, reliable, cheap public transport that people want to use - trains, trams etc. Where I live now, there's a fantastic metro and you can travel absolutely anywhere on the network for less than a dollar in clean, comfortable carriages.

I mean, it's all well and good telling people to take public transport but in the last place in the UK that I lived, the hourly bus service frequently failed to show up leaving me having to take a 50 quid taxi home on a number of occasions instead. And as for the trains there, well don't even get me started....

Actually, I don't even live there anymore so I don't really know why I even care except I don't like the idea of my home town being divided up into 4 "traffic cells" making it nigh on impossible to go from one part of the town to the next by car to visit my friends and family should I wish to without taking a massive detour to cross the Avon.

So, I would normally be just south of West Traffic Cell and my brother lives in North Traffic Cell. Under the proposals, I would either have to drive to West Traffic Cell, park, get a bus to somewhere within North Traffic Cell and walk to his house. Alternatively, I'd have to cross the Avon at a different point ( mikes away in Keynsham - way off the scale of that map) and drive directly into North Traffic Cell.

I mean, some of you will say fair enough but my own prediction is that this isn't going to fly. I shall watch with interest.

 

[mid_gen]

The basic idea if a 15 minute city i.e not NEEDING to travel far for everything you want, im in favour of, and i already live like this anyway, buying locslly where i can etc.

Im completrly opposed to this though; I'm totally against underhand communistical stuff that tries to restrict our free movement. The 15 minute city is now just another hijacked idea, like the climate movement.

15 minute cities is a sensible idea whose name has been hijacked by mental right-wing conspiracy networks and turned into another thing to frighten the terminally-online gullible older generation with.

 

[That Jekka Gal]

15 minute cities is a sensible idea whose name has been hijacked by mental right-wing conspiracy networks and turned into another thing to frighten the terminally-online gullible older generation with.

But it hasn't been hijacked by mental right wing conspiracy nuts - the way these schemes are being implemented goes way beyong the good idea of having everything on your doorstep - the Oxford and Bath schemes are both backed up by strict coercive measures and I'm guessing they will be a feature of the other schemes that are going to be rolled out too.

 

[Kenai]

So, I would normally be just south of West Traffic Cell and my brother lives in North Traffic Cell. Under the proposals, I would either have to drive to West Traffic Cell, park, get a bus to somewhere within North Traffic Cell and walk to his house. Alternatively, I'd have to cross the Avon at a different point ( mikes away in Keynsham - way off the scale of that map) and drive directly into North Traffic Cell.

Surely you'd just drive into the North Cell via Midland bridge? Why would you drive all the way to Keynsham and back?

You realise that map is only the very very centre of Bath? The North Cell just about covers Monmouth Place and the East Cell goes up to about George Street.

Edit - even if you assumed you had to use Upper Bristol Road to enter the North Cell, there's plenty of places to cross the Avon without needing to go anywhere near as far as Keynsham.

 

[Hagar]

Cities should have park and ride at each major A road interface and make it expensive and difficult to progress private cars onto the streets.

Shrewsbury we drive for about an hour to a park and ride outside of town.

Chester we take a bus journey of about an hour into town with a two mile car journey at the start.

Both are largely pedestrianised.

 

[That Jekka Gal]

Surely you'd just drive into the North Cell via Midland bridge? Why would you drive all the way to Keynsham and back?

You realise that map is only the very very centre of Bath? The North Cell just about covers Monmouth Place and the East Cell goes up to about George Street.

Well the map only shows 2 crossing points - one into the West Cell via the Churchill Bridge and another into the South Cell so I'm assuming Midland Bridge is off limits. Currently I'd just drive into Bath along the A4 and cross the river at Newbridge and drive up to Weston where my brother lives.

But if the scale of the map is as you say then shouldn't be a problem to take the route I'd currently use.

 

[Kenai]

Well the map only shows 2 crossing points - one into the West Cell via the Churchill Bridge and another into the South Cell so I'm assuming Midland Bridge is off limits.

As per my edit - even if Midland bridge was off limits, why would you have to drive all the way to Keynsham? There's multiple other local crossing points around Bath.

Currently I'd just drive into Bath along the A4 and cross the river at Newbridge and drive up to Weston where my brother lives.

If he lives in Weston, then he's not where you said he is before:

my brother lives in North Traffic Cell

Weston is several km north of that, so he's not 'in' the North cell at all. Newbridge, also, is a few km away from any of those zones.

I think you've completely misinterpreted that map - it sounds like you'd be able to do exactly the same journey you 'currently do' without going anywhere near those traffic cells.

 

[fez]

I consider paying someone to shop on your behalf a luxury and therefore not an actual solution.

Its not remotely a luxury. Its a massive timesaver, we pay for the delivery saver pass which ends up costing us about £1.50 in tesco clubcard points per delivery and we spend far less money than if we went to a store because we buy what we need. We don't browse.

I ride a recumbennt bicycle and I am far from the lazy stereotype of a lazy driver who drives 100 yards to the corner shop.

However, I would much prefer a carrot solution over the stick - more subsidies on eBikes, good, reliable, cheap public transport that people want to use - trains, trams etc. Where I live now, there's a fantastic metro and you can travel absolutely anywhere on the network for less than a dollar in clean, comfortable carriages.

That would be nice but the carrot is far harder, slower and in many places very hard/disruptive to implement. We need both. People are far too comfortable getting in the car for everything and we still revolve almost everything around the car.

15 minute cities is a sensible idea whose name has been hijacked by mental right-wing conspiracy networks and turned into another thing to frighten the terminally-online gullible older generation with.

Yep.

But it hasn't been hijacked by mental right wing conspiracy nuts - the way these schemes are being implemented goes way beyong the good idea of having everything on your doorstep - the Oxford and Bath schemes are both backed up by strict coercive measures and I'm guessing they will be a feature of the other schemes that are going to be rolled out too.

They very much have. Just the language and fear mongering they are used for shows this.

Where are you getting all this information about the implementation around you from?

 

[Kenai]

But if the scale of the map is as you say then shouldn't be a problem to take the route I'd currently use.

You're talking about getting to somewhere near the yellow dot, via the yellow marked bridge:

Nowhere near the traffic cells.

As per the scheme in Oxford, these proposals are primarily about keeping traffic away from the tiny inner city roads around the city centre, by preventing them being used as rat runs.

 

[Brun]

I love the irony in the OP managing to unwittingly demonstrate why schemes like this are considered necessary.

 

[squerble]

But it hasn't been hijacked by mental right wing conspiracy nuts - the way these schemes are being implemented goes way beyong the good idea of having everything on your doorstep - the Oxford and Bath schemes are both backed up by strict coercive measures and I'm guessing they will be a feature of the other schemes that are going to be rolled out too.

That's because it isn't a 15 minute city scheme, it's a traffic reducing scheme.

 

[OspreyO]

I love the irony in the OP managing to unwittingly demonstrate why schemes like this are considered necessary.

Shouldn't need explanation, it's obvious.

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