:-(

[Orangeb]

OK, call me needy, or whatever, but I'm worried I'm not picking up this networking stuff quickly enough.



My parents and teachers used to say I always looked for a more complicated answer to a simple problem. But then I got an A*A* in science- so that was that!
But I think I did this with the OSI model with layers 2 and 3, rather than just accepting the networks need both!

Currently I'm doing that with the HTTP stuff- trying to find metaphor for it.
Any opinions on all this might help?

 

[Caged]

As far as I can tell it's been three months since you decided you wanted to "learn networking", you've posted five threads since then essentially asking people to feed you learning on certain topics, not contributed to threads outside of ones you started yourself, you've tried to learn about switching, routers, virtual machines, active directory, none of your questions say "here's the material I've been learning from, I have x question about y section". No wonder you're confused, you seem to have no structure to your learning - you can't just watch YouTube videos about fifteen different topics and then make a sadface post when you don't pick it up.

Learning this stuff in theory doesn't count for anything. Nobody will give you a job because you can explain how packets get from A to B because that by itself isn't a hugely valuable skill. If you want to get into the industry then you need an entry-level job which will likely be on a support desk somewhere or a field engineer, and you learn from that point. None of those jobs will need a packet/frame level understanding of a computer network, and spending a year getting a CCNA is pointless because I'd be sceptical of someone with one and no experience.

Get an A+ if you can't find somewhere that will train you or can't take the wage cut, I highly recommend something instructor led because it doesn't seem like your strategy for self-paced learning is really working out for you. You also don't need to know how things work at a low level, you just need to know how to use the tools that exist. Can I diagnose that packet loss exists on a link and change a cable/clean a fibre/swap an optic/diagnose the interface as faulty to get the problem solved? Sure I can. Could I tell you why it's acting up if you gave me a scope? Not a chance, I don't need to know either and I don't let it bother me. Cables are cheap, time is not, swap it out and get on with your day.

 

[AlphariusOmegan]

I second looking at Comptia A+ first as you did state in another thread you're looking to get into first line support, CCNA/Comptia Network+ are not first line, they're more network admin roles.

 

[Tetras]

OK, call me needy, or whatever, but I'm worried I'm not picking up this networking stuff quickly enough.

My parents and teachers used to say I always looked for a more complicated answer to a simple problem. But then I got an A*A* in science- so that was that!
But I think I did this with the OSI model with layers 2 and 3, rather than just accepting the networks need both!

Currently I'm doing that with the HTTP stuff- trying to find metaphor for it.
Any opinions on all this might help?

One thing to keep in mind is that many courses are just trying to give you a basic grounding, from which you can answer simple practical and theory questions, they're not asking you to explain the whole concept and understand all of the principles behind it.

If you want that kind of information on many courses, you won't find it easily on YouTube and the like, you will have to go digging for it. If that's how you like to learn, I'd try getting better at finding those kind of detailed sources.

 

[Sin_Chase]

Why are you spending time on layer 2 and 3 at this stage when it sounds like you dont have a solid understanding of basic networking fundamentals?

Now you are looking at a protocol that arguably has nothing to do with networking? (HTTP)

Buy a networking for dummies and read it.

 

[Caged]

If you want to focus on networking and you know nothing coming into it I would pick up Todd Lammle's CCENT book second hand. It should be cheap as the CCENT cert has been retired now but the topics are true entry level stuff and Todd is a good writer. Wait until you understand the first three chapters before progressing further.

 

[Orangeb]

I have not contributed to other threads because I don’t know enough to do so. Anyway, I didn’t realise I had to do so to stay on the site.
If no-one took on anyone because they didn’t have any experience, how would any new generation move through any subject anywhere?
I thought I would try and get a decent understanding of networking, as well as knowing enough for a 1st line support job. That’s why I am doing the physical stuff with my cousin. I have not asked to be spoon fed, I have been learning and then asking if I get stuck, and over think stuff. Anyway, I don’t want a debate about my posts on here - I feel **** enough as it is. If you really must know why it’s taking a while - I have something called bi polar, and some days I don;’t do any learning, because of other stuff that gets in the way.

 

[AlphariusOmegan]

I have not contributed to other threads because I don’t know enough to do so. Anyway, I didn’t realise I had to do so to stay on the site.

it's not, don't worry about it. i personally stay to a few threads and don't often venture elsewhere for responses

If no-one took on anyone because they didn’t have any experience, how would any new generation move through any subject anywhere?

the cry of the ages, you can't get the job because you don't have experience, you can't get experience because you can't get a job

I thought I would try and get a decent understanding of networking, as well as knowing enough for a 1st line support job.

That's not a problem maybe it would help us if we knew your current level, do you feel you can do a first line job right now?

That’s why I am doing the physical stuff with my cousin. I have not asked to be spoon fed, I have been learning and then asking if I get stuck, and over think stuff. Anyway, I don’t want a debate about my posts on here - I feel **** enough as it is. If you really must know why it’s taking a while - I have something called bi polar, and some days I don;’t do any learning, because of other stuff that gets in the way.

don't worry, sometimes people come across as being harsher than they mean in text (some do but meh) the problem with pure text is no context or nuance to the responses.

 

[Caged]

Apologies if I came across as blunt, but it's unclear what you're after in all honesty. Your crash-course of trying to learn a huge range of topics to a very shallow level isn't clicking after a few months, so what do you plan to do about that? Pick one area and then try a book. If that doesn't work try a Udemy course or equivalent when they have a sale, if that doesn't work then you might need to pony up for an actual tutor led course, see what your local college is offering.

It's not true that nobody will employ someone with no experience, I said that I would personally be suspicious of someone with a CCNA and no experience, bear in mind experience in a home lab can count. This is why I suggested an entry level Comptia cert like the A+ and then doing a support job so you're at least working in the field as a stable base to gain that experience from.

Edit: I also wouldn't bother learning Active Directory under my own steam. It's clearly not what Microsoft are focusing on now, most organisations large enough to be using it will have *decades* of crud in there which won't align with what you've seen from labbing it yourself, and you won't be allowed to touch it initially anyway. Treat each companies AD as a bespoke directory just for them and don't spend too much effort on it.

 

[Orangeb]

Cool - Thank you for your help. Yeah I was looking at the COMP TIA with a guy called Professor Messer, who takes you through it bit by bit on YouTube. He was explaining something and it wasn’t that clear, so i posted something on here, and one person said try chuck networking - thats how I came across that. I think I have just ‘attacked’ stuff on a far too thinly spread approach - the physical stuff, and how to set up a basic network - switches, routers, servers, virtual machines - most of which I can do. Then the OSI model, and then the comp tia, then definitions of things - DNS servers, DHCP, etc etc. I’ll go back to COMP tia and carry on through that, and when he talks about various models, if I don’t like his way of explaining it, I’ll use something else for that bit. I did have a networking for dummies book years ago. I’ll buy another one I think.
I think I could handle most of a first line support job - it would have to be basic, but I always just thought they would want a decent networking knowledge.
But my knowledge at moment is basic.

 

[Orangeb]

This is Professor Messers explanation of basic IP etc. I just found it hard to stop there, as his metaphor wasn’t great - So i went looking at got caught up again with the OSI model.

He goes from basic mobile phone stuff to a break down of Ethernet, and IP, and then TDP and UDP, with a mention of the layer 4 too. I’m thinking I can’t be the only person with basic knowledge to suddenly think “wow, brakes!!”.

 

[AlphariusOmegan]

first line jobs would in my experience rarely deal with network issue, they're more running off a script turn it off and on again, no? i'll escalate It certainly won't harm your chances but it's not as required as you'd expect.

I'd reccomend the CompTIA A+/Network+ Certification All-in-One Exam Guide books they give you a very good grounding, they won't let you sail through the proper exam imo but would really help, personally I found the Network+ book really helped me get an understanding with the Professor Messer and Network Chuck videos supplementing that knowledge

 

[Orangeb]

OK, cool thanks AlphariusOmegan. I’ll look at getting them. I have put into YouTube, basic breakdown of Ethernet and IP.
From what I can see Ethernet is a protocol (rather than just a cable), and we send packet using this (which I knew about packets anyway). Packet have a IP payload, as well as others info. It says it’s a IEEE protocol. TDP and UDP are ways and rules (if you like), to send packets - TDP being more reliable as it can do things like tell the other ‘side’ to slow it down if they are sending data too fast, where UDP is less reliable, but faster, as it can’t do things like that.

 

[AlphariusOmegan]

Yes Ethernet is a protocol rather than the cable.
I wouldn't say TCP (Transmission Control Protocol) is more reliable but it does have the ability to build reliability into it with the ability to validate and track the datagram packets being sent.
UDP (User Datagram Protocol) is more of a fire and forget protocol that is used when you really are not that concerned with stability. Something like Zoom or Teams video calls use UDP over TCP as it has less overhead for the program.

 

[Caged]

It's also because with realtime video/audio, if you lose a packet there's no point getting it resent, the moment has passed. You're better off dropping frames from a video stream than having them reinserted a second late, and you wouldn't want to delay things until you can get the frame sent because on a 30 minute video call you'd end up with a couple hundred ms of delay and the experience would be pants.

 

[Zefan]

Yes Ethernet is a protocol rather than the cable.
I wouldn't say TCP (Transmission Control Protocol) is more reliable but it does have the ability to build reliability into it with the ability to validate and track the datagram packets being sent.
UDP (User Datagram Protocol) is more of a fire and forget protocol that is used when you really are not that concerned with stability. Something like Zoom or Teams video calls use UDP over TCP as it has less overhead for the program.

Real time applications such as teams and zoom don't necessarily use UDP because of overhead, but because of their nature. If you miss a split second of audio, do you actually want to receive it later? No, the data is now useless.

:edit: caged got me

:edit2: it's worth remembering that just because a given application uses UDP, doesn't necessarily mean it can't have reliability controls going on further up the stack, say built in to the actual application itself.

 

[Orangeb]

I learnt a bit about packets when I first started ‘digging’ about, without any idea of what to learn first. There are so many videos and things out there that complicate basic stuff- so I’m sitting there going WTF - because up until recently Ethernet was just a cable plugged into my TV going to my router. Not quite sure how Ethernet is classed as a protocol AND people refer to an Ethernet cable - which is physical. That then leads into the 1st layer of OSI.

But also no-one explains why you have Ethernet IEEE Protocl and then another protocol TDP or UPD. I guess they are within a packet, rather than a more ‘overall’ protocol.

Oh ok, done some more searching, and I think what I am getting at it the packet is sent, and TCP or UDP are at one layer (so one protocol), and at a lower level is Ethernet IEEE protocol.

Sorry for the 6,0000000 little update notes!

I think the problem is when I decided to try and get into 1st line support ( 6 months ago), I took myself and effectively dropped me into the driving seat of a car on a motorway, and said “drive”, when I didn’t know what a car even was!!

 

[AlphariusOmegan]

sounds like it tbh Orangeb. I do recommend the all-in-one books by Mike Meyers. They are really good but be careful which verson you get as they have different Editions, the older ones can still be useful but will lack certain updated technologies.

there's nothing wrong with diving headfirst into it but you will probably learn faster/better if you have a structured aim. Although learning all about fibre technologies and the differences between LC/ST/Multimode/Single mode are useful to know further down the line, for a firstline job it's not an urgent requirement.

I'd personally suggest the Comptia A+ route first, then when you have that go Network+/CCNA the A+ will give you a good foundation for the Network+
You should also consider what career you would like as it's not all the same path. Paul Jerimy has a fantastic website that gives his suggestions/recommendations for what certificates go well for what IT careers. I'm currently considering either Sysadmin/Network Security or or Security/Risk Mangement which have some overlap but also widely different requirements. This is more geared towards the amercian market but a lot of it is transferable to the uk as well.

 

[Felon]

Oh ok, done some more searching, and I think what I am getting at it the packet is sent, and TCP or UDP are at one layer (so one protocol), and at a lower level is Ethernet IEEE protocol.

Sorry for the 6,0000000 little update notes!

I think the problem is when I decided to try and get into 1st line support ( 6 months ago), I took myself and effectively dropped me into the driving seat of a car on a motorway, and said “drive”, when I didn’t know what a car even was!!

You need focus, it looks like your randomly picking topics - then trying to deep dive them with using YouTube or google without any fundamental knowledge, then getting stuck.

I would highly recommend some sort of structured course or curriculum to follow for something like a CCNA, because you need to learn the fundamentals in the right order, and start from the beginning.

You’re asking the right questions by being curious, but the answers are more than likely confusing you.

 

[Orangeb]

OK, thank-you Felon. I agree actually. I went back to something basic I read when I first strarted looking at this whole subject, about what a packet is. I drew a diagram when I was round my cousins, last night, and put the various breakdown headers onto it - IP, TCP, UDP, HTTP, Ethernet - and said to him “ok, so where is the data? They are all protocols, just rules for doing something effectively” and he said that is just the header. The “payload” is underneath (in the diagram). I thought it’s like a missile - they have their rules - heat seeking, radar (whatever they use), and then they have thier payload behind. They actually call it a payload as well.
So thats a start. He also said ‘they’ only need 1 protocol - so the others would be discarded.