1930s Semi Refurb - Part 2 of ... (Edition: Boiler/Water Tank Relocation)

[Deleted User 298457]

Hi folks,

Part two of the series of me refurbing my 1930s semi. This time... boiler.

I imagine this beasty from the 1980s still fully functions, however I had budgeted for a replacement and I knew the heating system was due for an overall as the rads were clearly 30+ years old, and the pipework is mostly exposed (or poorly boxed in).

I had a chap around earlier who quoted "roughly" 7 to 8k to rip this lot out, and fit a new boiler and megaflo cylinder in the attic. He'd run a gas main up the outside of the house and then connect into the existing system. This seems a lot but not bonkers for where I live. However it gave me food for thought (and was the first time I ever went into the attic since buying the house). Namely I was concerned at having an all singing, all dancing system, connected to my garbage radiators and exposed pipework that I want to delete.

What I am considering is --

• Image 1 - Leave the boiler where it is. It is pretty much dead space anyway (under the stairs, door opens in front of it)
• Image 2 - Re-new the cold feed via the back of the units as opposed to "up and over" the kitchen window
• Image 3 - To enable my bathroom project move the tank into the loft, but broadly in the same physical location, just a floor up
• Potential wild card - get a free weekend to re-run all of the downstairs rad pipework under the floor and into the attic, and likewise, re-run all of the upstairs pipework into the attic, so that in whatever scenario, all the rads/pipework is renewed at the same time?

So that means a new standard F&E type boiler, with a new unvented cylinder.

Question:
1. Is this silly? Should I be considering moving the boiler to a different room, given all of the pipework runs to the opposite side of the house? Is there a clever framework to work out the best place to put these things?
2. If keeping the same location, is it permissible? The flu is super low (hip height) at the moment
3. What random pipework am I likely to uncover in all of these boxing in sections (in the kitchen specifically?). Gas comes in via the left hand side as the meter is only about a meter away.
4. Can I easily spur off of the hot water tank if it was in the loft (to enable my new bathroom?)
5. Do I need to consider the placement of pipes in the attic if I am going to do a loft conversion (unlikely in the next 5 years) - i.e. should I run them through the joists or would a loft conversion mean new joists anyway?
6. Is getting a weekend to run a new 'ring main' (whatever the plumbing equivalent is) to do the downstairs rads (only 8 rads total I think) time worth spent BEFORE getting the boiler/tank replaced?

Image 1

Image 2

Image 3

 

[Mickie]

Question:
1. Is this silly? Should I be considering moving the boiler to a different room, given all of the pipework runs to the opposite side of the house? Is there a clever framework to work out the best place to put these things?
2. If keeping the same location, is it permissible? The flu is super low (hip height) at the moment
3. What random pipework am I likely to uncover in all of these boxing in sections (in the kitchen specifically?). Gas comes in via the left hand side as the meter is only about a meter away.
4. Can I easily spur off of the hot water tank if it was in the loft (to enable my new bathroom?)
5. Do I need to consider the placement of pipes in the attic if I am going to do a loft conversion (unlikely in the next 5 years) - i.e. should I run them through the joists or would a loft conversion mean new joists anyway?
6. Is getting a weekend to run a new 'ring main' (whatever the plumbing equivalent is) to do the downstairs rads (only 8 rads total I think) time worth spent BEFORE getting the boiler/tank replaced?

1. put the boiler in a convenient place, run a core of 22mm pipe to the center of the house upstairs and down, then offshoots of 15mm to 3 radiators, they also require everything be lagged behind walls and floors.
2. yes the boiler can be kept in the same place, just cage the flue
3. I guess you'd maybe find 28mm copper primary pipes, a 15mm cold main and a 22mm hot water pipe
4. you can spur off a hot water pipe as much as you'd like unlike a electric plug.
5. first fix the pipes and label them in the loft and the joiner can work around them with their new joists, the small joists in a loft are mainly there to hold up the ceiling, not lots of humans, a bed and wardrobes
6. I guess it makes sense doing as much as possible before you switch over to the new system so the hot water and heating isnt off for too long, if its an empty house then it wouldn't really matter.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

Question:
1. Is this silly? Should I be considering moving the boiler to a different room, given all of the pipework runs to the opposite side of the house? Is there a clever framework to work out the best place to put these things?
2. If keeping the same location, is it permissible? The flu is super low (hip height) at the moment
3. What random pipework am I likely to uncover in all of these boxing in sections (in the kitchen specifically?). Gas comes in via the left hand side as the meter is only about a meter away.
4. Can I easily spur off of the hot water tank if it was in the loft (to enable my new bathroom?)
5. Do I need to consider the placement of pipes in the attic if I am going to do a loft conversion (unlikely in the next 5 years) - i.e. should I run them through the joists or would a loft conversion mean new joists anyway?
6. Is getting a weekend to run a new 'ring main' (whatever the plumbing equivalent is) to do the downstairs rads (only 8 rads total I think) time worth spent BEFORE getting the boiler/tank replaced?

1. put the boiler in a convenient place, run a core of 22mm pipe to the center of the house upstairs and down, then offshoots of 15mm to 3 radiators, they also require everything be lagged behind walls and floors.
2. yes the boiler can be kept in the same place, just cage the flue
3. I guess you'd maybe find 28mm copper primary pipes, a 15mm cold main and a 22mm hot water pipe
4. you can spur off a hot water pipe as much as you'd like unlike a electric plug.
5. first fix the pipes and label them in the loft and the joiner can work around them with their new joists, the small joists in a loft are mainly there to hold up the ceiling, not lots of humans, a bed and wardrobes
6. I guess it makes sense doing as much as possible before you switch over to the new system so the hot water and heating isnt off for too long, if its an empty house then it wouldn't really matter.

Cheers Mickie. This is actually just what I needed.

I think the boiler is probably OK where it is then, with a bit of a "lift and shift to the left" to use the wasted space a bit better.

So I think what I'll try and do is run 2x 22mm from the loft to the first floor, and then 2x 22mm from the loft to the ground floor. I can probably first fix the rads with exposed pipework and sink it under the floor later on.

I'll also probably want to renew the feeds from the boiler to the tank, and from the water main to the tank. Is that another 2x22mm?

Would you recommend swapping the tank out for something special? The chap mentioned a megaflo as the latest and greatest..?

 

[Mickie]

No worries, yeah run a 22mm cold mains upto the tank and 2x22mm primary pipes from the boiler to the tank, you'd be better off following a schematic.. megaflo should be fine, they come with massive guarantees.. Have you seen the mixergy cylinder, they're pretty cool smart cylinders.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

No worries, yeah run a 22mm cold mains upto the tank and 2x22mm primary pipes from the boiler to the tank, you'd be better off following a schematic.. megaflo should be find, they come with massive guarantees.. Have you seen the mixergy cylinder, they're pretty cool smart cylinders.

Yeah I'll get something drawn up.

I'm struggling to find a heating engineer tbh. Most of the lads I've pinged are basically pricing themselves out of the technical work in favour of doing mega $$ bathrooms and kitchens...

 

[Mickie]

Yeah I'll get something drawn up.

I'm struggling to find a heating engineer tbh. Most of the lads I've pinged are basically pricing themselves out of the technical work in favour of doing mega $$ bathrooms and kitchens...

I'd rather work on heating systems all day, good luck with the work

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

FWIW I have had normal system tanks, combis (including supposedly over specced one), and a megaflow (current house) and I would 100% without any hesitation go megaflow again.
Its head and tails above the others with mains pressure water.
The "cost" is listed as between 1-2kw a day (for keeping the water hot) and its worth every penny of that IMO.

The other advantage of a tank either traditional or megaflow (that combi wont allow) is if you get solar you can divert any excess into the tank to heat water.
I think with the switch to elec and heat pumps etc over time, and the fact modern tanks are very efficient and solar the tanks will become incredibly popular again.

 

[SPG]

I had the same, situation old standing boiler in the kitchen.

Ripped it all out and put the boiler in the loft,cylinder etc, new rads throughout 7k. Just make sure they put a filler loop somewhere easy to save you going up in the loft every couple of months.

Biggest pain was me lumping the wood up in the loft to spread the load for the cylinder.

 

[~Divine~Wind~]

Yeah id deffo be going cylinder, as above when the time comes and you install solar can divert to the water tank.

if you look at that link i sent you a few weeks back, the kitchen wall where the tall rad is, thats where all of our pipework runs into the property and upto the boiler, instead of about 4 seperate boxed in section across the kitchen haha. we switched from a back boiler downstairs and a cold water tank upstairs to the combi.

I will add that running a gas main up outside the property does sound rather lazy of the bloke you've asked mind. not that hard to run copper pipe up a void or wall internally, messy yes but far neater and ya refurbing everything anyway.

Decide where the boiler is going, install all the appropriate piping for the boiler and the rads, hell fit the rads yerself as well.

Then just have the bloke install and sign off on the boiler, should bring the bill down a fair bit.

When we pulled the floors up the pipework was a bit spaghetti junction so we reran all the heating plumbing in that jg guest push fit stuff then lagged it as well. so personally yes id spend a weekend doing it afresh.


edit: and for the pennies they cost... isolator valves all over the place lol

 

[Deleted User 298457]

Right, thanks chaps - I do appreciate it.

I think my plan of attack is as follows:
* Renew boiler where it currently sits, albeit tighter to the wall
* Renew the boxing in that is currently in the kitchen, and make a new boxed in section run on the far wall of the kitchen. Currently the pipework goes straight up into the bathroom and is then boxed in there. Although I hate the boxing-in, I think a consistent box around the entire perimeter of the ceiling is much more nicer than random bits appearing everywhere!
* Put a new unvented cylinder in the loft, and renew/neaten all the pipework into the loft to empty the currently airing cupboard
* TBC on rads. For now, he has suggested to pick up the existing rad network. He spoke about power flushing which IIRC is a days labour to do it properly, so I am thinking that draining the currently system, and roughly replacing the rads may be a sensible thing to do right now. My beasts are pretty inefficient and probably rotten inside. That means of the old system only the rad pipework will be left in place. He was cool with giving me guidance/labelling accordingly so I can do the rooms one by one later.
* TBC on the cold feed, it may be fine, but either way it needs to be renewed. Maybe I get him to use what is there now and when I re-do the kitchen I'll refit all of the cold pipes using Hep2o.

The chap who just quoted was great, my age - runs his own firm. We'll see if he comes in with $lol estimate. Unlike the other guy, this chap didn't lead the conversation with how to bypass my gas meter too


Edit: this boxing-in also gives me a really nice and easy way to run all of electric cable back to the under stairs cupboard too. So it'll be a real game changer to enable me to progressively do the house without constantly lifting floor boards.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

FWIW I have had normal system tanks, combis (including supposedly over specced one), and a megaflow (current house) and I would 100% without any hesitation go megaflow again.
Its head and tails above the others with mains pressure water.
The "cost" is listed as between 1-2kw a day (for keeping the water hot) and its worth every penny of that IMO.

The other advantage of a tank either traditional or megaflow (that combi wont allow) is if you get solar you can divert any excess into the tank to heat water.
I think with the switch to elec and heat pumps etc over time, and the fact modern tanks are very efficient and solar the tanks will become incredibly popular again.

When you say megaflow do you mean the brand or the unvented cylinder? Chap reckons you can get non-megaflo branded ones for a bit less that do the same thing with the same guarantee?

What do you mean by the cost to run? Are you saying it is highly?

Yeah id deffo be going cylinder, as above when the time comes and you install solar can divert to the water tank.

if you look at that link i sent you a few weeks back, the kitchen wall where the tall rad is, thats where all of our pipework runs into the property and upto the boiler, instead of about 4 seperate boxed in section across the kitchen haha. we switched from a back boiler downstairs and a cold water tank upstairs to the combi.

I will add that running a gas main up outside the property does sound rather lazy of the bloke you've asked mind. not that hard to run copper pipe up a void or wall internally, messy yes but far neater and ya refurbing everything anyway.

Decide where the boiler is going, install all the appropriate piping for the boiler and the rads, hell fit the rads yerself as well.

Then just have the bloke install and sign off on the boiler, should bring the bill down a fair bit.

When we pulled the floors up the pipework was a bit spaghetti junction so we reran all the heating plumbing in that jg guest push fit stuff then lagged it as well. so personally yes id spend a weekend doing it afresh.


edit: and for the pennies they cost... isolator valves all over the place lol

Yep definitely planning on keeping the cylinder. I understand these fancy new cylinders have enough pressure to run the shower. In our last place we had a pump and it was brilliant. Stripped your skin lol!

Just had a look at your pics (keep referring back to them so thanks for that lol!) - unfortunately the most logical place for our boiler is where it is right now. It is total dead space. Unfortunately it means we either rip the kitchen cabinets and floor out (to avoid the up and over boxing in) or we completely re-think the whole setup.

I'm not against ripping the kitchen out tbh but the disruption is just too much. A bit of tidy boxing in that is accessible helps me do my re-wire too!

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

When you say megaflow do you mean the brand or the unvented cylinder? Chap reckons you can get non-megaflo branded ones for a bit less that do the same thing with the same guarantee?

What do you mean by the cost to run? Are you saying it is highly?

I have the megaflow brand itself but I did discuss with my plumber when he was last here and he said he wouldn't bother replacing with the brand, there are copies available for les money.
So I would get a copy if you want to save the money, I would probably do the same, but..

In regards the cost to run, there will be a rating for the lost energy from the tank, it varies by exact model, and size etc so its worth checking. Both megaflow and the competition.
Like I said I forget the exact amount but its between 1-2 kwh of energy lost a day at iirc 70 degrees.
FWIW our airing cupboard where it is situated is slightly warm, so its still used to dry bits in the winter, or summer if we need to dry some smaller things, but its nothing like I remember old airing cupboards being like in the past.
Its kind of tepid warm so shows that vast amounts of heat are not escaping. Which was always the selling angle for a combi, no hot tank losing energy.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

I have the megaflow brand itself but I did discuss with my plumber when he was last here and he said he wouldn't bother replacing with the brand, there are copies available for les money.
So I would get a copy if you want to save the money, I would probably do the same, but..

In regards the cost to run, there will be a rating for the lost energy from the tank, it varies by exact model, and size etc so its worth checking. Both megaflow and the competition.
Like I said I forget the exact amount but its between 1-2 kwh of energy lost a day at iirc 70 degrees.
FWIW our airing cupboard where it is situated is slightly warm, so its still used to dry bits in the winter, or summer if we need to dry some smaller things, but its nothing like I remember old airing cupboards being like in the past.
Its kind of tepid warm so shows that vast amounts of heat are not escaping. Which was always the selling angle for a combi, no hot tank losing energy.

Ah gotcha. Well I have always been anti-tank but since having one in my old place coupled to a shower pump, I think it is worth it. I guess with the tank going in the loft, my outside temperature will be a lot lower which could be a consideration. But I imagine not worth worrying about.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Ah gotcha. Well I have always been anti-tank but since having one in my old place coupled to a shower pump, I think it is worth it. I guess with the tank going in the loft, my outside temperature will be a lot lower which could be a consideration. But I imagine not worth worrying about.

Im not sure now (and its not easy to see the label is towards the back of the tank!) if the rated loss was also based on a air temp, I guess it would be.

If worst case happened and you thought your tank in the loft was losing excess then you could build it its own pir based "box" to sit inside. That way it would be double insulated from the outside.
Or even just add some rockwool round it. Layers works on humans so no reason to think extra layers on a tank wouldn't either.
If you think about it an airing cupboard was a layer that trapped escaping heat...

 

[jonneymendoza]

Do you have any plans to use a heat pump?
. If so, you may need to start planning for that as you're end game and that would be insulating your property externally which could add up to 20cm thickness to you're walls and to install larger radiators.

 

[sigma]

Is this the house you paid something like £900k for? In a Tier 1 area? Seems like a lot of money for a semi. Or is that normal London prices these days?

Edit: just had a look on Rightmove, yeah, it's the going price for semis in London.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Is this the house you paid something like £900k for? In a Tier 1 area? Seems like a lot of money for a semi. Or is that normal London prices these days?

Edit: just had a look on Rightmove, yeah, it's the going price for semis in London.

It depends on the area of London. I am in the process of buying a semi detached property for a fair bit less than 900k but it's in zone 4 London

 

[jpaul]

Yep definitely planning on keeping the cylinder. I understand these fancy new cylinders have enough pressure to run the shower. In our last place we had a pump and it was brilliant. Stripped your skin lol!

cylinder gives you the mains pressure, if you need to keep the flow for a higher up shower you still need a pump,
parents just had pressurized tank (loosing expansion in loft) and had a mira shower pump transforming previous system.
.

 

[Buffman]

cylinder gives you the mains pressure, if you need to keep the flow for a higher up shower you still need a pump,
parents just had pressurized tank (loosing expansion in loft) and had a mira shower pump transforming previous system.
.

Just for clarity, an unvented cylinder doesn't "give you pressure" you need to have sufficient mains pressure from your cold tap, and that will dictate how good you get a return.


My unvented cylinder is very good. Weirdly I've got a main 25mm incoming, but it's been dropped immediately to 15mm pipe across the house. I asked my plumber if its worth changing to 22mm but he indicated its not (i kept asking the Q as I was concerned!)

 

[jpaul]

My unvented cylinder is very good. Weirdly I've got a main 25mm incoming, but it's been dropped immediately to 15mm pipe across the house. I asked my plumber if its worth changing to 22mm but he indicated its not (i kept asking the Q as I was concerned!)

Have/did you also consider a pumped shower .. I had feared my parents were being ripped off installing that since it is difficult to evaluate it's subjective impact.