28 nm Struggles: TSMC & GlobalFoundries

[Purgatory]

Source:

http://www.techpowerup.com/159189/28-nm-Struggles-TSMC-amp-GlobalFoundries.html

Making silicon chips is not easy, requiring hugely expensive fabs, with massive clean-room environments and at every process shrink, the complexity and difficulty of making the things goes up significantly. It looks like TSMC and GlobalFoundries are both having serious yield problems with their 28 nm process nodes, according to Mike Bryant, technology analyst at Future Horizons and this is causing a rash of non-working wafers – to the point of having nothing working with some chip designs submitted for production. It seems that the root cause of these problems are to do with the pressures of bringing products to market, rather than an inherent problem with the technology; it just takes time that they haven't got to iron out the kinks and they're getting stuck: "Foundries have come under pressure to release cell libraries too early – which end up with designs that don't work," Bryant said. In an effort to try and be seen to treat every customer equally, TSMC is attempting to launch ten 28 nm designs from seven companies, but it's not working out too well: "At 45-nm, only NVIDIA was affected. At 28-nm any problems for TSMC will be problems for many customers" said Bryant.



GlobalFoundries are also struggling, although perhaps not quite as badly, according to Bryant: "However, there are recent comments of major yield problems with their 28-nm process actually being even worse than at GF [Globalfoundries]". Their 32 nm & 28 nm nodes are struggling, because they are using problematic gate first processing and this is worsened by the fact that they are using processes from two companies, AMD and IBM. Trying to debug two processes at once is causing serious headaches, compounded by a lack of cooperation between bases in Dresden and the US which appears to be caused by bad management.

Note that Bryant's assertions are at odds with what TSMC's CEO and chairman Morris Chang said when he spoke to analysts the previous day about the company's fourth quarter financial result: "Our 28-nm entered volume production last year and contributed 2 percent of 4Q11's wafer revenue. Defect density and new progress is ahead of schedule and is better than 40-45-nm at the corresponding stage of the ramp-up. We expect 28-nm ramp this year to be fast and we expect 28-nm will contribute more than 10 percent of total wafer revenue this year." It will soon become apparent who is right.

Regardkess, the pressure isn't going to let up for these companies, since Intel have been successfully manufacturing at the 32 nm level for a year, making their Sandy Bridge processors. On top of that, in April, Intel will introduce their significantly smaller 22 nm-based process technology in the form of their Ivy Bridge CPUs which have been demonstrated to work very well indeed. These are based on Intel's proprietary Tri-Gate 3D transistor technology too, which gives further performance increases, hence upping competitive pressures significantly."



drunkenmaster remember when I said "you can quote me on that when they come out" ? Remember what you said ? Hate to say I told you so for the second time. That's strike 2 now. Strike 1 was the 7970 80% speed increase you predicted with your magic crystal ball .

Reminder here drunkenmaster.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=20736068#post20736068

 

[chaotic_uk]

and they got it from else where also

 

[drunkenmaster]

Yeah, you're quoting a story that is being widely discredited, with no proof, from a guy that talks about Nvidia's problems on 45nm.......... yes the process Nvidia didn't use.

For the record, the 7970 IS 80% faster than the 6970, you have to be blind to not see how, just because the cards have a 30-40% headroom for overclocking rather than clocked 30% higher with a 10% headroom like every other high card I can think of.

THey are UNDERCLOCKED FOR TDP REASONS.

There is stock of 7970's, there is lots of stock of 7950's coming, Apple have got a huge number of chips out of 28nm, AMD don't have yield problems, Nvidia don't have yield problems by all accounts.

Amd are taking advantage of nothing coming close, when the prices adjust we'll see similar pricing to last gen maybe up to +£50 or so, nothing more or less.

In stock reports, in meetings CEO's go to jail for lying in TSMC have said 2% of their revenue from Q4 last year was from 28nm wafers.

There is a MASSIVE difference between wafer yields and plant yields. The biggest problem with 28nm is TSMC went with an all new fab ONLY, they usually part retrofit one fab while building a new one(they've been building for a couple decades almost non stop). So rather than increasing supply from an existing fab while a new fab is built in stages and ramped up, its all in one building, which isn't finished.

The wafer output is growing daily, its been better as reported by EVERYONE who has talked about the process, AMD said its better, Nvidia say its better, TSMC say its better.

One guy says its worse, and also gets many other things completely wrong.


SO actually thats strike 1 for you on the 7970(its this simple, I can buy a 7970, overclock that, overclock a 6970 and the 7970 will be 80% faster, at least).

Strike 2 will happen when the "real" pricing happens when Nvidia and AMD have some midrange parts out.

Performance, bang on, in 2 months prices will be bang on, for the record so you can quote this, yields won't magically jump up by 20% out of no where on the process in as short a space as two months and neither will a respin happen in that timeframe.

Look at the clocks on the 7970 ffs, they do quite easily stupid overclocks(well not really overclocks..... removing the underclock).

Here's a hint, Nvidia had problems on 40nm, they missed their clock targets, they ran overly hot, and couldn't put out fully yielding parts...... those are two MASSIVE signs of yield problems, no full yield parts, and lower clocks.

THe 7970 has exceeded all clock expectations and the only available part they want to sell is the FULL part.

Why is the 7950, ready and waiting, delayed? Again because a card that is £100 cheaper that overclocked vs an overclock 580gtx and is 45% faster, will put price pressure on the 580/570gtx, if those move, the 6970/6870 have their prices under pressure.

They can sell every card they make, for now they are controlling supply and keeping only the highest priced part out so they can make a few extra million with increased costs.

 

[drunkenmaster]

LOL seriously ? Drunken you had your tea or coffee today mate ? The new cards are not going to be as fast as that, also if you are reading up on AMD and their recent events, you may realise there is something really wrong going on inside the company and they are quiet as a mouse this time round (which is not like them), it all hints another bulldozer disaster with the graphics cards and you can quote me on that when they come out and you will see the improvements people are expecting will not materialise and it will be a speed bump but nothing we are all going to go crazy about like the 4870 to 5870 for example and we won't see not even on the new manufacturing process or their redesigned GPU cores, they will bring out cards that are more power efficient with a small speed bump this round (probably no faster then a GTX 580 or plus 10%-15% faster in certain games),

THIS is the post you said you can quote, not a completely different one.

The 7970 is a Bulldozer like disaster, failing the fact that the Bulldozer was only a disaster to rampant fanboys who have no idea what AMD did with Bulldozer, you say the 7970 will be no faster than the 580gtx, except in a few certain games.


That is what you said, and wanted quoted.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/01/09/amd_radeon_hd_7970_overclocking_performance_review/7

Basic overclock every 7970 can do in a heartbeat, against an OVERCLOCKED 580gtx, it beats it from 33-62%. Lets see, you said same speed, maybe 10-15% in some things..... okay.

The other overclock speed which is higher but still achieved by a very large portion of users has the card 48-80% faster, than an overclocked 580gtx.

Yeah, this card is barely a speed bump..... it couldn't possibly do well on a new process, it certainly won't smash the 6970.

You were 100% wrong on performance, completely, and again, I was bang on(those are 580gtx numbers remember, add 20% all around for the 6970 and I may have even underestimated performance.