3 Storey Side Extension - Am I getting scammed?

Minato

Minato

Minato

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So the last year of my life has mostly been taken up with building a ~150SqM 3 storey side extension at home. It's been an experience...stressful, enjoyable, expensive, and a host of other adjectives. I want to make a proper build log with all the pictures, for now I need some advice about contractors potentially trying to rip me off. My feeling is that everyone that comes to measure up/come and give me quotes sees the size of the property and doubles their price.

First, plumbing.
I got 6 quotes for the following work:
- Removal of existing hot water cylinders
- Retain existing large/commercial boiler, low loss header
- Supply and install 2x 500L cold water tanks, and 2x 300L hot water cylinders
- 2 cold water boost pumps
- 150SqM of wet underfloor heating with manifolds (just laid on top of insulation on ground floor and builder to screed over, overlay system 1st and 2nd floor)
- 6x wired thermostats to control UFH zones
- Fittings and pipework.

The cheapest quote I had was £28k, the most expensive was £54k. The majority were in the £32-38k range. The £28k guy took £9k and legged it. So now I'm with the £32k guy who has a great reputation and I'm sure will do a good job. But really?

Second, flooring.
I want Karndean fitted across all 3 floors, again about 150SqM. The exact flooring I want is available online for £49/SqM for the planks, and £64/SqM for the parquet. Based on my figures, for the flooring, prepping the floors with latex/screed/self levelling, and then installation, it should have worked out to about £14k. Instead, the two quotes I've had so far have been £21k and £30k. Again, a huge difference. I called the £21k guys, and they admitted they're charging £77/SqM for the plank, and £109/SqM for the parquet. They refuse to just install, they supply and fit only. So fairly openly a rip off. The other difference between the two quotes is one is for 5mm screed, the other 10mm.

My next thought is to just buy the flooring myself online at the best prices, and then find someone reputable to prep the floors and install it for me. But it's slightly more of a hassle, and again they'll want to come and measure up and will inflate the price as well. Part of me wonders whether I should just try to bargain down the £21k guys.

London, of course, and I'm conscious that there's a lot of very knowledgeble/wise/worldly members here so advice would be appreciated.
 
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I've been pricing up electric UFH and Karndean for our new extension which is about 25 SqM. Holy moly, it's daft pricing. One quote for prep, supply and fit came in at £5110... without underfloor heating! We haven't even picked a top of the range LVT - the one we liked is £30 to £40 per SqM online.
 
#Chri5# said:
I've been pricing up electric UFH and Karndean for our new extension which is about 25 SqM. Holy moly, it's daft pricing. One quote for prep, supply and fit came in at £5110... without underfloor heating! We haven't even picked a top of the range LVT - the one we liked is £30 to £40 per SqM online.
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Good to know it's not just me.
I'm struggling to understand how with the current cost of living people are affording these prices, and if they can't, how these businesses are staying afloat.
 
Would the priority not be to get your 9K back? What's that all about?

In terms of underfloor, I have both electric and wet. I agree with above post from @Coran and would consider wet.
 
Minato said:
The £28k guy took £9k and legged it.
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I hope you're pursuing ways to get this money back, he probably lost it at the bookies 10 minutes after you gave him it though.

As for the rest of it, the usual advice applies - get a Build of Materials, fixed or variable costs, VAT number and as many references as you can get.

I hate these kind of build stories where the people get ripped off by the trades, it's becoming all too common.
 
Minato said:
Good to know it's not just me.
I'm struggling to understand how with the current cost of living people are affording these prices, and if they can't, how these businesses are staying afloat.
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There is a lack of quality trades out there, the good ones can charge and the cowboys undercut and people get burnt.
 
jaybee said:
Would the priority not be to get your 9K back? What's that all about?

In terms of underfloor, I have both electric and wet. I agree with above post from @Coran and would consider wet.
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Mysterae_ said:
I hope you're pursuing ways to get this money back, he probably lost it at the bookies 10 minutes after you gave him it though.

As for the rest of it, the usual advice applies - get a Build of Materials, fixed or variable costs, VAT number and as many references as you can get.

I hate these kind of build stories where the people get ripped off by the trades, it's becoming all too common.
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Semple said:
I'm glad I'm not the only one that bit popped out to. Frankly if this is a genuine thread and you're writing that off then I'd say you have more money than sense.
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Don't worry lads. As soon as it happened I documented everything, all communications, and went to small claims court. Got a CCJ for the full amount, had it kicked up to the high court, got a high court writ, and there are now bailiffs going after him for the money.

Work must go on in the mean time though naturally. Believe me that £9k hurt, but the flip side is being grateful it was only that £9k and I didn't give him the whole £28k.
 
jaybee said:
I don't understand the mentality of some people. What goes through their heads? I'll just take this 9K. Nothing will happen. Wtf?
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From what I understand he can just liquidate his ltd company and then there's not a lot I can do to get the money back. Short of Godfather esque tactics that I shan't put in writing.
 
Curious - Did you not budget/quote all this stuff before you started the build??

Aside from that - did you pay the deposit (£9k) on your credit card? If so you can claim under section 75. I NEVER understand why no one does this. People pay cash/BT to someone they have no comeback with.

Aside from that - Jobs are generally split in thirds -
  • materials
  • profit
  • labour
So if your flooring "materials" are around £7.5k, the I expect the job quoted will be around 3 time that plus London tax... So £21k is about right.
 
booyaka said:
Curious - Did you not budget/quote all this stuff before you started the build??

Aside from that - did you pay the deposit (£9k) on your credit card? If so you can claim under section 75. I NEVER understand why no one does this. People pay cash/BT to someone they have no comeback with.

Aside from that - Jobs are generally split in thirds -
  • materials
  • profit
  • labour
So if your flooring "materials" are around £7.5k, the I expect the job quoted will be around 3 time that plus London tax... So £21k is about right.
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Of course when it comes to stuff like flooring, I looked extensively online to find the best price per SqM, installation costs per SqM etc, and worked out how much it should roughly cost based on those (e.g. around £14k).

For things like plumbing though, all I know is that I wanted wet UFH and some bigger hot water tanks and sufficient pressure for the whole property. It's a bit tricky to budget that when you don't know much about what tanks and pumps and fittings etc would be required. Hence getting multiple quotes from plumbers.

And yes for all of the actual construction, demolition, blocks and insulation, timber, steels, etc we've been pretty good and close to what's expected. About £140k in so far on that front. Windows was more expensive than anticipated at £17k, but from asking around £1k per window is about right for aluminium because we were told PVC would be a disaster since it wouldn't match the rest of the house.

Air conditioning was the only other expense that I didn't anticipate, but at £8k it's not the worst in the world and I don't think they've ripped me off.

Now that I'm looking at bathroom stuff, again there's a world of difference. Hansgrohe/Porcelanosa stuff is many multiples the cost of Victorian Plumbing or Drench for instance. None of it seems to make much sense either. A super nice tap from HG/Noken is like £120, but their showers are £2000. Whereas a shower at VP or a local merchant can be as low as £150.
 
Minato said:
Of course when it comes to stuff like flooring, I looked extensively online to find the best price per SqM, installation costs per SqM etc, and worked out how much it should roughly cost based on those (e.g. around £14k).

For things like plumbing though, all I know is that I wanted wet UFH and some bigger hot water tanks and sufficient pressure for the whole property. It's a bit tricky to budget that when you don't know much about what tanks and pumps and fittings etc would be required. Hence getting multiple quotes from plumbers.

And yes for all of the actual construction, demolition, blocks and insulation, timber, steels, etc we've been pretty good and close to what's expected. About £140k in so far on that front. Windows was more expensive than anticipated at £17k, but from asking around £1k per window is about right for aluminium because we were told PVC would be a disaster since it wouldn't match the rest of the house.

Air conditioning was the only other expense that I didn't anticipate, but at £8k it's not the worst in the world and I don't think they've ripped me off.

Now that I'm looking at bathroom stuff, again there's a world of difference. Hansgrohe/Porcelanosa stuff is many multiples the cost of Victorian Plumbing or Drench for instance. None of it seems to make much sense either. A super nice tap from HG/Noken is like £120, but their showers are £2000. Whereas a shower at VP or a local merchant can be as low as £150.
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Seems strange to potentially be spending £200-300k on an extension all in, and considering putting in a £150 shower...... I'm all for saving money where possible but your already £140k in with all the fixtures and fittings and flooring still to do.
 
booyaka said:
Seems strange to potentially be spending £200-300k on an extension all in, and considering putting in a £150 shower...... I'm all for saving money where possible but your already £140k in with all the fixtures and fittings and flooring still to do.
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At what point does it become diminishing returns though? I've got a shower from victorian plumbing in a current bathroom, cost around £350, works perfectly and does the job. Am I going to have a noticeably different experience with a £2000 shower from Hansgrohe?
 
That markup on the flooring is normal as that is where their profit margin exists. They wouldn't be in business if all they made from the job was labour.

Simple rule of renovating - take the cost price and then double it. Then compare that to your quotes.
 
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Flor_Fina said:
That markup on the flooring is normal as that is where their profit margin exists. They wouldn't be in business if all they made from the job was labour.

Simple rule of renovating - take the cost price and then double it. Then compare that to your quotes.
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Very true. Although I think we can say fairly that a lot of people take the ****, e.g. £58k plumbing quote and £30k flooring quote.
 
Coran said:
Beware - that’s going to be expensive to run! Electric is several times the price of gas. If you’re staying in this house for the long haul, I’d really recommend wet UFH.
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Yup - the electric UFH would just be to top-up the new room (which has a big radiator) if it's really cold.
 
Minato said:
Good to know it's not just me.
I'm struggling to understand how with the current cost of living people are affording these prices, and if they can't, how these businesses are staying afloat.
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I quickly changed from electric UFH to Water retrofit; albeit slighly more expensive setup costs the the running cost for electric was crazy (something like £25-£27) a day for 4 hours in a room around 100SQM. Have a look here for these retro-systems:
water-insulation-boards

You can see my thread on this forum - i have some photo's of it going down. You are only looking at 16mm floor increase.


As for flooring we looked at Karndean, for 200+ SQM it was crazy expensive. Have a look at a brand called Firmfit - it's not cheap but still a lot cheaper than Karndean and holds the same type of warranty and is acoustic backed
 
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