360 ROHS compliant?

JAMAL · 5 Nov 2006 at 21:45

As title, is it?

If so could this be the reason for failures?

Arsey · 5 Nov 2006 at 21:47

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RoHS
Do you mean that microsoft are restricted from using lead in their xbox 360 so they are failing?

JAMAL · 5 Nov 2006 at 21:48

Arsey said:
Do you mean that microsoft are restricted from using lead in their xbox 360 so they are failing?

Yes

Jokester · 5 Nov 2006 at 21:53

Can't see it myself, otherwise electrical goods in general would be failing left right and centre if ROHS was having some effect on reliability.

Jokester

JAMAL · 5 Nov 2006 at 21:54

Jokester said:
Can't see it myself, otherwise electrical goods in general would be failing left right and centre if ROHS was having some effect on reliability.

Jokester

ROHS does affect reliability.

Jokester · 5 Nov 2006 at 21:55

JAMAL said:
ROHS does affect reliability.

Only if companies select substandard materials for replacements, why would it only effect MS in that case?

Jokester

JAMAL · 5 Nov 2006 at 21:56

Jokester said:
Only if companies select substandard materials for replacements, why would it only effect MS in that case?

Jokester

Not true, if ROHS compliant solders were as good as leaded then why are the military and medical excempt from ROSH compliance?

Jokester · 5 Nov 2006 at 22:02

JAMAL said:
Not true, if ROHS compliant solders were as good as leaded then why are the military and medical excempt from ROSH compliance?

But you still haven't demonsrated that this is having an effect on electronics in general, so how can it only be affecting Xboxes?

Surely we would be hearing of products failing all over the place because of ROHS not just Xboxes.

Jokester

hardkore · 5 Nov 2006 at 22:18

Also i dont think xboxes go through quite the same environments as what military electronics go through.

Wrathamon · 5 Nov 2006 at 23:06

JAMAL said:
Not true, if ROHS compliant solders were as good as leaded then why are the military and medical excempt from ROSH compliance?

Indeed.

The problem with lead free solders are that as they are now 97-99% Tin (as compared to 60% tin in good ol' 60/40 tin/lead solder), 'tin whiskers' can grow out of the solder joints and may cause short circuits. In vital equipment (medical / military) having the possibility of tin whiskers developing is too risky - hence the exemption.

As i've had to go sort out stuff for RoHS i'm not happy yet with lead free solders, despite having tried many types over the last couple of years - i'm never happy with the finish of joints. (And for all my personal stuff I still have a few rolls of 60/40 left!)

It's not just solder that's the issue with RoHS, it's everything including some materials used in some components.

I don't think it's the cause of the problem with the 360 though, as lead free products have been introduced over many years, I would have to hazard a guess that silicon failure would be - especially with the leading edge archetecture of the CPU.

steveo · 5 Nov 2006 at 23:23

hardkore said:
Also i dont think xboxes go through quite the same environments as what military electronics go through.

any1 got a nuke so we can set an emp of to test his theory

Doug · 5 Nov 2006 at 23:23

What I read:

JAMAL said:
...if ROHS compliant soldiers were as good as leaded then why are the military and medical excempt...

mctiny · 5 Nov 2006 at 23:58

JAMAL said:
Not true, if ROHS compliant solders were as good as leaded then why are the military and medical excempt from ROSH compliance?

Medical companies are not exempt :confused:

, I work for the world leader of Medical Infusion devices and we have to be ROHS compliant, as of yet we have had zero failures regarding ROHS compliant equipment within our machines.

hardkore · 6 Nov 2006 at 00:52

Wasn't the cause for the 360's failing something to do with the heatsink on the CPU? Read something on here the other day about how the heatsink as standard makes contact with the casing which has a metal lining. This then heats the whole console up which then causes hardware failure...

gord · 6 Nov 2006 at 02:01

Wrathamon said:
Indeed.
The problem with lead free solders are that as they are now 97-99% Tin (as compared to 60% tin in good ol' 60/40 tin/lead solder), 'tin whiskers' can grow out of the solder joints and may cause short circuits. In vital equipment (medical / military) having the possibility of tin whiskers developing is too risky - hence the exemption.

Tins of Whiskers? Something smells fishy to me.. must be the catfood..

JAMAL · 6 Nov 2006 at 08:40

mctiny said:
Medical companies are not exempt , I work for the world leader of Medical Infusion devices and we have to be ROHS compliant, as of yet we have had zero failures regarding ROHS compliant equipment within our machines.

Well i make PCBs for some very high tech companies and a lot are excempt, see here http://www.rohs.gov.uk/DecisionTree.aspx?id=23 . I have been a PCB cad/cam engineer for over 5 years and have worked in every aspect of pcb manufacture since i was 16 (i'm now 29).

From what i have learned over the past 2 years whilst going over to lead free is that reliability is a problem and the alternatives out there are not as good as a leaded solution. Also it isnt just about the solder, the FR4 (pcb Material) has to go through much higher assembly temptretures, obviously high TG materials should have been used which they most likely are, but thermal expansion during the assembly process and the stresses put on plated through holes isnt good.

It just had me thinking when on another forum someone mention the 360 being ROHS compliant, and then some other posts where people with dead 360's heated the pcb up with a heatgun and it fixing the 360. I was thinking that the heatgun is just heating up the solder and making the solder joint good again.

On the post about other electrical items failing, i think they may be, but there are a lot of people buying 360's and are then very quick to post on an internet forum slating the 360, whereas if my dad bought a sony tv and it packed in he wouldnt go posting on here about it

On a side note Sony is seeking a excemption on some circuits using a 5-10% lead mix.

VIRII · 6 Nov 2006 at 09:42

steveo said:
any1 got a nuke so we can set an emp of to test his theory

Nope, but I am sure it went through a full suite of EMC testing, most electrical items do.
Send me yours and I'll do the altitude, constant acceleration, vibration, shock, salt mist, temperature and humidity cycling etc though.

Caustic · 6 Nov 2006 at 09:43

The 360 would have to be ROHS compliant, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to sell it surely? After all, it came into effect un July. I do know that the original DS isn't ROHS compliant, but the Lite is.

VIRII · 6 Nov 2006 at 11:08

mctiny said:
Medical companies are not exempt , I work for the world leader of Medical Infusion devices and we have to be ROHS compliant, as of yet we have had zero failures regarding ROHS compliant equipment within our machines.

Are you involved with syringe drivers?

ppttsyg · 6 Nov 2006 at 12:29

Just a quick reply. Medical equipment does not have to comply with leadfree legilislation due to the fact that it is classed as mission critical equipment. I will post a more comprehensive reply when I'm at home later but I work for the manufactures of the 360 PCB so I will give more inside info later.