4TB backup solution - recommendations on how please!

Soldato
Joined
6 Sep 2005
Posts
3,781
Hi guys

I need to backup and store data from five PCs:
x4 on XP 32bit
x1 on Vista 64 Ultimate

I would like to have 4TB of storage mirrored (8TB of HDDs worth) so the data is protected should one drive fail.

I would really like some recommendations on the best way of achiving this.

I have thought about a NAS system, but I don't know the first thing about them...

Are they just like building a standard PC with many HDDs in them?

XP Can't see more than a 2TB drive, so would I be able to create x2 2TB mirrored arrays?

What software should I use? I don't think I need Windows Home Server, I don't need auto backups etc. but I don't know if the freeware versions work correctly with Windows...I'm in a bit of a muddle! :confused:

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! :D
 
Thanks very much for the replies guys, it's much appreciated! :D

I have to rule out pulling the data from different machines onto the one machine for a couple of reasons - the other machines may need to access the data, and it would be irritating to navigate to four sets of drives copying data, far easier (for me) going from machine to machine copying data across.

Raid 5 has been mentioned a couple of times, why would you recommend that? That's where the data is mirrored and striped? So you get the speed of striping with the backup of mirroring.
How much space does that give me if I use 3 1TB drives to create a Raid 5 array? Is it 2TB of storage?
Would that mean I could still have the 4TB of storage with only 6 disks?

As you can tell I'm a little confused with what I need to get to accomplish results, I would be very interested to hear the replies! Once this gets decided upon I can move onto the hardware :)
 
Thank you one and all for your replies, I appreciate all ideas!

JonJ678 seems to have covered most of the bases on the previous comments so I'll post from that...

Hardware
I think building my own machine is definitely the way to go, so just to check what I would need:
Basically any low-mid range system would be fine for a RAID array?

RAID Question
I think RAID 5 sounds like a good bet, so if I want 4TB or storage I buy 5 1TB drives, is that correct? (and if I wanted to go mad and have 8TB I would buy 9 drives?)

RAID hardware or software
Seems to be a bit of a tricky one this...can you explain what the difference between them is?
I always thought that software RAID was the poor mans way of doing RAID. Several years ago I used to have a RAID 5 system and RAID 0 in the same machine. Both were controlled by the motherboard (built in RAID options) and the RAID 5 was continually falling over, and rebuilding itself took a flipping age and virtually ground the machine to a halt whilst it rebuilt.

My understanding was that a hardware RAID (from a dedicated controller card) was by far the better option, it was faster and more stable...have times changed or have I got that wrong?


Software
Tricky one this, and one that I have a couple of questions about...

FreeNas
I have absolutely no understanding of this, though I think I could learn it. This may be a completely idiotic question...but can Windows PCs see the HDDs setup in a FreeNas system?

Windows
This does sound like a simplier option...yes I do know Windows already...should I just buy a copy of XP/Vista OEM and set it up from there?

Anti Virus
I had thought that if it was on the network and shared then it would be exposed to any viruses etc...I run Kaspersky on my PCs now, if I had a Windows setup then I could install it on there as well...would FreeNas be protected from viruses as it's not a Windows machine (in the same way that Apple was virus free for so long)?

Automation
I don't need it to be automated at all, we work on the files/folders on our local drives then when we have finished, or need to archive anything they can be moved across to the NAS where they are automatically double backed up, that's the idea...about as simple as it gets really. :)

Linux
I hadn't considered that...I have breifly looked at Ubuntu once about a year ago, and it seemed a bit of a pain to get going, and rather unfamiliar (obviously).

Switching it off
It would be going in an office and I would be wanting to switch it off at night to help keep costs down...is that simple enough to do or are they designed/meant to be left on 24/7?

Problems
You mention that Linux is far easier to recover from...what sort of things can go wrong? I thought about the worst was a drive failing, but it could simply be taken out and swapped for another and all the data would be intact...am I being a bit naive there?

Limitations
With using XP machines, am I able / should I be making 2 2TB partitions? It would be easiest for me if all the computers can see the whole NAS and data can be copied into the appropiate place from any machine, security isn't important as everyone using the machines is trusted and competant.

Hardware
Phew...I think that's enough questions for one post...I'll come back to that in a little while!
 
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Absolutely cracking replies! Please don't apologise for posting so much, it's exactly what I need to know, I need to research as much as possible before investing, your posts are fantastic and much appreciated! :D

There has been quite a lot said since my last post so I'll take em one post at a time starting with post 14 from JonJ678.

From what you've said I think the hardware will be fairly simplistic so I will return to that in later posts (think I've said that once), I still need to be absolutely clear on the setting up of it I think. Once I've got that sorted the rest should be easy enough hopefully.

Multiple HDDs and failure rates
Really interesting point about running 9 HDDs from the same make! Say I buy 5 Samsung F1s and 4 Western Digitals...would they all work in exactly the same way without any problems if they perform at slightly different rates?
I'm still a little unsure how it would be setup exactly and that relates to HDDs.

Raid Arrangement
OK, it's a RAID 5 system I'm sorted on...either 4 + 1 disks, or 8 + 1 disks.
Would it be seen by the OS (whichever I pick) as one big disk that I could partition into separate 2TB drives? Or can I pick which drives I make into drives? Just thinking about using HDDs from different manufacturers, if I could select WD as one drive, and Samsung F1s as another drive it might negate any possible issues.

Distinguishing hardware and software
I'm still a little hazy on what's hardware and what's software...I was under the impression (no doubt wrongly!) that adding in a controller card was hardware, and using the motherboard was a software RAID...unless it's a dedicated chip on the motherboard that handles the RAID, obviously it would be hardware then. Either way I would be knackered if it conked out so I think software RAID would probably be the way to go. Speed isn't an issue, getting my data back after a catastrophic failure is! I have absolutely no knowledge of software RAID though...from what you are saying JonJ is a software RAID handled by the OS? So Ubuntu or Freenas would create and manage the RAID, then nothing can fail because except for HDDs failing there is nothing to go wrong that can't be fixed with a reinstall of the software that would recognise the RAID straight away?
(Sorry, you've probably answered that already but I'm being a bit slow with it...a simple yes confirmation will do lol).

OS
Windows/Home Server is out then...from what you have written I think I'm leaning towards Ubuntu.
Is it harder to setup than Freenas then?
Would Ubuntu allow NTFS formatting and show 4TB disks as well?

Look no hands!...or monitor keyboard or mouse
Controlling it remotely sounds absolutely brilliant...having this virtually silent box running in the corner, without a spaghetti junction of wires behind it and no extra space taken up sounds fantastic!!! Is that something that is just done with Freenas or can Ubuntu manage that as well?

Budget
I haven't set one yet (always a bad sign), but of course, spending as little as possible is always preferable...the system itself sounds like it will be cheap but I think I'll be forking out for a case at least and a decent PSU...I was thinking of the Antec 1200 case, I use x5 Antec 900s at the office and they are whisper quiet and keep things chilly...any reason for using the P182 over the Antec 1200?


Reply to Evil-I
A hot spare sounds like a good idea, is that easy to implement?
sldsmkd mentions a cold spare...is that literally an unplugged HDD ready to swap out for minimum downtime?

I really like the idea of a UPS, considering it will be housing all the critical info, doesn't sound cheap but I'll look into it!

Just to confirm I am reading what you and JonJ are saying correctly...you use a 160GB, and JonJ uses a pendrive as your OS yes? And that's a different drive to the RAID...the RAID is separate so you can screw up the OS and it won't affect the RAID?

Ch3m1c4L, thanks for confirming that XP can see greater than 2TB as long as it's not booting off it, that's good to know!

Thank you again one and all for your posts, your information is absolutely invaluable and I'm very grateful that you take the time to post it! :D
 
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Thanks again for the replies guys, I really think I'm beginning to piece together the puzzle now! :)

Quick question for Evil-I though...you mention why use NTFS...would Windows be able to see a linux filesystem? How is it better?


I'm still undecided over Freenas or Ubuntu (many thanks Chaos for that link and video!)...I like how simple Freenas sounds but not knowing how much I might want to fiddle or change things at a later date I may find it a bit limiting in time...decisions decisions!

I think I should start looking at hardware now...

What is the best way of housing 10 SATA drives in one PC? Most motherboards come with six SATA slots at most, is it just a case of using add in cards?

This is my thoughts on the build, I would welcome any comments:


Case
Antec 1200 case: £137.99


HDDs
x5 Samsung F1 1TB drives (maybe more if I want an 8TB RAID, not sure about splitting brands) £64.99x5 = £324.95

Motherboard
Gigabyte GA-MA770-UD3 AMD 770 - £60.98


CPU
AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 7850+ Black Edition 2.80GHz - £49.99


CPU silent fan
Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro PWM CPU Cooler (Socket 754/939/940/AM2) - £17.24


RAM
Corsair XMS2 DHX 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2 PC2-6400C4 TwinX Dual Channel (TWIN2X2048-6400C4DHX) - £24.99


PSU
Tagan PipeRock TG600-BZ 600w Modular £101.99

Additional SATA Ports
4 port controller - £77.04


I have a spare graphics card I can harvest should it be needed on the initial setup.


This is a pic of it all, what do you think?
24w91zc.jpg
 
I use a Coolermaster stacker case at home as my games machine, I have always found it great but a bit noisy compared to the Antec 900s I have now, can barely hear them working.

Cases
So I think I'll go for the Antec 1200 case, sounds like it will do all I need to do, it only has space for 9 3.5" drives though, but I think I'm right in thinking that I can get an adaptor that will convert a 5.25" bay into a space where I can install several more HDDs, a bit like a 4 in 3 module for the Coolermaster stacker...I can't seem them on OCUKs website though :( I'll have to get some longer SATA cables as well!

RAID type
I think RAID 6 will definitely be the way to go, just reading up on Wiki I came across this when describing it:
According to the Storage Networking Industry Association (SNIA), the definition of RAID 6 is: "Any form of RAID that can continue to execute read and write requests to all of a RAID array's virtual disks in the presence of any two concurrent disk failures

That sounds pretty good to me, especially considering the amount of disks that will be involved.

I think the 8TB system might be the way to go...so that will require 10 disks in RAID 6 yes?

I have several 1TB Samsung F1 drives already so I'll buy some WD drives to go with them.

And I'll set them up with a Linux filing system...you guys do realise that I am going to have a thousand and one questions about the software when I get it built don't you??? lol


Software question
Can both Ubuntu and Freenas be run from pendrives rather than CDs? If I am filling the system up with HDDs I won't have any room for a CD drive and would like to keep it out of the system if possible, I'm sure flash memory is quicker for one thing!


Compatibility issues
Is there anyway of finding out which extra controller cards will work with Ubuntu/Freenas? I don't want to buy it all and put it together just to hit a hurdle at the last stage.
 
Thanks York for the words of caution...awwwwww...makes me wonder whether I should bother at all!

My initial (and niave) view was that if I cobble a RAID together then the data is double backed up and there's no problem...seems like unless I mirror the drives there is no guarantee that if one drive goes down I will be able to get the data back...:(

I'm a bit flummoxed with it all I think.
 
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I've just had a look at the 12 port controller cards which is what I would be needing if I had a 8TB array...they are around £550 for a 3ware card :eek::eek::eek:

Ouch!

I know you can't argue when it comes to securing data...but that is a heck of a whack on top of buying the machine...

1. What's the likelyhood of Ubuntu/Freenas being able to recognise it?
2. Should it conk out after the warranty period, would it really be as simple as buying a new 3wire card with similar specs and plonking it in place?
3. What would happen if in 3 years 3wire has gone bust and the card breaks...would there be any other way of retrieving the data?
 
The Drobo, though sounding excellent at first but after reading round it seems like problems problems problems...from basic things like it being constantly noisy when the drives are near filled, to long rebuild times, to it just not working correctly.

Also a Pro version would cost more than the whole system I was looking at (though would save me hours and hours of time!).

Thanks for the thought but I think I'll be looking at the original plan.
 
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