5x5 Advise

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I'm thinking about having a crack at a 5x5 program. How do I work out what weight to start with initially? Do I just use the heaviest I can perform a 5 Rep Set with?

Would you guys do the exercises strictly in the order they appear detailed, or would you do the main one first but then swap the order of the others that day around?

All 5 x 5 advise welcome :)
 
Which 5x5 program are you looking at? I've followed Bill Starr's version three times and I've made fantastic gains on it. Have a read about it here and see what you think.

There's a link for an excel spreadsheet at the bottom that can be used to work out the weights you'll be lifting for each of the nine weeks.
 
Pigeon_Killer said:
Which 5x5 program are you looking at? I've followed Bill Starr's version three times and I've made fantastic gains on it. Have a read about it here and see what you think.

There's a link for an excel spreadsheet at the bottom that can be used to work out the weights you'll be lifting for each of the nine weeks.
When I saw the thread title I was just going to say wait for Pigeon Killer to come in. I was going to link to your journal over on MP, you made some awesome progress, very impressive stuff :)
 
The one I saw was Frankie NY's over on the MT Forums mate, but I am completely open minded.

I've been following a light weight, high rep routine for the last few weeks from the MP website. I was going to follow it for a month to break myself in, but TBH I've gotten back into the swing of things faster than I thought and the light(er) weights mean I have had a two week period of getting used to lifting weight again but it's served it's purpose and I'd like to move on.

Thanks to both for the posts, I will check out that link now.
 
Have you not just started lifting? I wouldn't recommened the 5x5 for a beginner. I'd definately build a decent strength base first.
 
Styles said:
Have you not just started lifting? I wouldn't recommened the 5x5 for a beginner. I'd definately build a decent strength base first.

Yes, but the current routine isn't enough. How long should I train for before trying 5x5 and what do I do until then?

Low weight and high reps is boring me TBH.
 
Styles said:
What rep range are you training in?

I am currently doing the routine below. I intended to use it for a month just to get my muscles and joints used to lifting as the weights are lighter then I would like to use.

I've trained two weeks (this is the third), butI am getting impatient because I want to start lifting heavier.

I guess I am looking for a solid beginners routine, based upon compound lifts but one that is going to pack muscle on me given time.

I just am not sure the routine I am currently doing is right. Am I just being impatient or should I stick with it? If so, how long do I stick with it?

Monday - Upper body - 12-15 reps; 60 seconds rest, gradually reducing to 20-30 seconds
A1 - Flat Dumbbell Press x 4
A2 - Seated Row x 4
B1 - Dumbbell shoulder press x 4
B2 - Close grip chin ups x 4
C1 - Dumbbell Curls x 3
C2 - Dumbbell Tricep Extension x 3

Tuesday - Lower body - 12-15 reps; 60 seconds rest, gradually reducing to 20-30 seconds
A1 - Leg Press x 4
A2 - Stiff legged Deadlift x 4
B1 - Leg Extension x 4
B2 - Leg Curl x 4
C1 - Seated Calf Raises (30 seconds between sets)

Wednesday - Rest

Thursday - Upper body - 8-10 reps; 45-60 seconds rest
A1 - Flat Bench Press x 4
A2 - Bent Over Row x 4
B1 - Dumbell shoulder press x 4
B2 - Wide grip chin ups x 4
C1 - Barbell Curls x 3
C2 - Skull Crushers x 3

Friday - Lower body - 8-10 reps; 90 seconds rest, reducing to 45-60 seconds.
A1 - Squat x 8
A2 - Stiff legged Deadlift x 8
C1 - Standing Calf Raises (30 seconds between sets)

Weekend - Rest
 
I've found this routine for beginners by Steve from MT Forums (Toxic Toffee). What do you guys make of it? It looks like something I'd like to have a crack at. How long would you recommend doing this for before moving onto the four day split with more isolations? Six months or more?

Here it is:

*** Initial Basic Hypertrophy ***
By Steve Blades - Personal Trainer & MuscleTalk Moderator

Below is a brief account of hypertrophy in the beginner, condensed into a few paragraphs to get you rolling. There is nothing revolutionary about the plan; it merely confirms the basics required to enhance aesthetic appeal for the budding bodybuilder. Many starting programs either focus on the notion of strength building or run many isolation exercises to cater for the new trainer's desire to build a good body. I believe the idea of compound movements in a specific rep range is the basis of hypertrophy training for the beginner opposed to countless isolation exercises of very low rep range work.

Let's start with some basics. Hypertrophy is basically increasing the size of the muscle. Building strength is initially the main focus of many beginner plans. This is adequate for the trainer who is interested in combining muscular growth with performance. The lower rep range used in such plans though will not be favoured by those who purely train for aesthetics. Higher rep ranges will promote more substantial gains in muscle girth as opposed to explosive low repetition work which favours strength over size. This is fact and whilst some hybrid plans will increase both strength and muscular size to a degree they will never be the master of either. Jack will stay the man of all trades.

Some great staring points for those building an initial base are Bill Star's 5 X 5 routine and Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength. These plans are based around low rep range compounds and will yield good strength gains and some hypertrophy. What I propose in this mini article is something purely for the aspiring bodybuilder without losing focus on the reliance on compound work in the early phases of training. This is straight out aesthetics training with strength gains being secondary. The protocol below will be similar to that of many tried and tested methods but will hopefully enable the trainer to appreciate the difference in exercise choice, rep range and the structure of the training plans employed for strength versus size. This is pure aesthetics, base-building for the virgin trainer:

Day 1
Barbell deadlifts 3 x 8
Weighted chins 3 x 8
Bent over barbell row or Pendley row 3 x 8
Barbell/EZ bar bicep curl 3 x 8

Day 2
Incline barbell bench press 3 x 8
Flat dumbbell bench press 3 x 8
Standing military barbell shoulder press 3 x 8
Weighted dips 3 x 8

Day 3
Barbell squat 3 x 8
45 degree leg press 3 x 8
Stiff-legged deadlift 3 x 8
Seated or standing calf raises 3 x 15

Note: the only rep change is that of calf raises. No exercises are to be substituted unless stated below. The Smith Machine is not adequate for squats, presses or deadlifting. Barbell means free Olympic barbell from a squat rack or pressing station.

This is the basis of hypertrophy for the beginner. There are a couple of isolation exercises in there but in the main it's hard compound movements in the '8 rep range', 8 reps by 3 sets from experience and science are shown to provide adequate increases in hypertrophy when in a calorie surplus diet. There is nothing revolutionary about the plan; it is simply confirming what is required for the new trainer to start their bodybuilding career. The progression of would be a 4 day split with more isolations, yet the backbone still being based around the bench press, squat and deadlift. Never lose sight of the 3 'biggies'.

Progression should be noted and represent a steady linear curve after initial fluctuations. Whilst 'newbie' gains can be dramatic ensure the progression is fluid and plateaus are minimized by not getting ahead of yourself. Log down weights achieved each week and look to increase the number as the weeks pass.

The length of the plan is stated as 'ongoing'. Some plateaus will be hit before others but do not exclude, for example, bench press and substitute it for pec-dec as you can't get over a sticking point. (Programming and progression will be discussed in later articles). The simple premise will be to start with a weight that you feel 8 repetitions is 'taxing' you but not 'maxing'. Look to increase that weight by the smallest possible weight whilst keeping within the guidelines stated above, week in week out.

Many new trainers will become too eager and go from benching 35kg in week 1 to 40kg in week 2 and then try and go to 70kg in week 3. Inevitably he sticks right there for the ensuing 12 weeks.

How do I perform the exercises? Simple, follow the links below
http://www.bsu.edu/webapps2/strengthlab/
http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html
http://www.coopersguns.com/videos/exercise-encyclopedia/

I don't have that equipment though. Change gyms or buy it; machine work in the main simply doesn't cut it. The Smith Machine is not a barbell bench press either. Barbell squats are that, they are not a machine. The 45 degree leg press though is a good machine and not all good gyms will have one. If not, use dumbbell lunges listed in the links above.

I want to do more biceps. Read someone else's plan. This one is not being changed. Biceps will get hammered on day 1. Any pulling movement will recruit the biceps and I have even added in a bicep curl for you against my better judgment.

Where are abs? In the deadlifts, squats and rows. Core strength isolation work for now is not included and will be introduced after 12 weeks. Adequate stimulation will be encountered on this plan. This will then include hyperextensions and hanging leg raises. For now though focus on the biggies as opposed to the six pack.

I can't do weighted pull ups/chins or dips what do I do? Get stronger and do them. Have your training buddy guide your through the initial weeks with a 'spot'. After this point weight will be added to complete your 8 reps by using a weight belt and plates to increase the resistance. It's surprising how quickly these exercises progress.

I can't get on the equipment I need. Change gyms or train at a different time.

I have a knee injury. Do you or do you really? 99% of excuses seem to revolve around bad knees. Sit yourself down and ask if it's truly the case. If you want to be a bodybuilder you need a good set of wheels, train them. If you want beach fluff muscles go pick up Men's Muscle Monthly Magazine for Muppets and crack on.

There isn't as much in there as what my Personal Trainer gave me, I want more. Try harder then, these are the most taxing exercises you will do and you will need recovery time both between sets and outside the gym. If you want to swing bicep curls and tricep kick backs around all day, go ahead and then read this plan 9 months down the line when you are no further on.

As stated above, progression and stalling is beyond the scope of this mini article and will be addressed in future editions of The MuscleTalker. For now simply learn the movement, develop the range of motions and increase the weights lifted, noting down week by week progression. In terms of nutrition, my Mass Gaining V2 plan would be ample for the budding trainer to increase weight in conjunction with the plan outlined above.
 
The Mad Rapper said:
Day 1
Barbell deadlifts 3 x 8
Weighted chins 3 x 8
Bent over barbell row or Pendley row 3 x 8
Barbell/EZ bar bicep curl 3 x 8

Day 2
Incline barbell bench press 3 x 8
Flat dumbbell bench press 3 x 8
Standing military barbell shoulder press 3 x 8
Weighted dips 3 x 8

Day 3
Barbell squat 3 x 8
45 degree leg press 3 x 8
Stiff-legged deadlift 3 x 8
Seated or standing calf raises 3 x 15

Note: the only rep change is that of calf raises. No exercises are to be substituted unless stated below. The Smith Machine is not adequate for squats, presses or deadlifting. Barbell means free Olympic barbell from a squat rack or pressing station.
I like the note bit ;)

Nice looking workout that will give great gains. The ONLY thing I'd change is the rep scheme on the deadlifts, I'd drop it to 6 reps and possibly add another set, so 4x6. This would work better than 3x8 and I'm pretty sure everyone will agree.
 
Mad Rapper - TT is a very well respected person both on MT and in general, you can be sure that anything that he posts up will be upto date (if its not he soon openly admits to things needing to be changed and does post different when needed) and work very well.

Having said that, i agree with the DLs CW, but thats like any routine, changes are there to be made for everyone :D
 
Thanks Lads.

Well, my plan is this:

I have just cancelled my current membership at the Council Gym. They have no barbells, no squat rack no a lot of the other things I need and it's irritating me. When I go in there I'm rarely with anyone training seriously, so the atmosphere's not what I am after either.

I need to pay until the 01 Aug 07, so I'll keep using it until then, then I am going to join Muscle Zone in High Wycombe owned by Tony Demarco. I've mentioned it before, it's a Pro Gym, full of some real monsters so that's going to be intimidating for a while, but I want to have the right equipment and I am sure the atmosphere will be good! I'll follow TT's routine there.

Until then I am going to stay on my current routine but drop the reps from 12 to 8 and increase the weight. I'm doing 4 sets at the moment, should I drop that to 3 sets for 8 reps or leave at 4?

That way I can go to the new gym with a bit more strength so I won't look like a complete n00b trying to bench 20KG each side ;)

Good plan?
 
Chong Warrior said:
I like the note bit ;)

Nice looking workout that will give great gains. The ONLY thing I'd change is the rep scheme on the deadlifts, I'd drop it to 6 reps and possibly add another set, so 4x6. This would work better than 3x8 and I'm pretty sure everyone will agree.

I've read that elsewhere, so that's what I'll do. Thanks ;)
 
The Mad Rapper said:
*Bump* for confirmation that my plan in the post above re: gyms etc. is OK please?
You're asking about reps and sets right?

One way of looking at it is usually aim for around 24 reps total, this isn't set in concrete but it's a good figure to aim for.

12x2=24
8x3=24
6x4=24
5x5=25
4x6=24

If doing 15 reps then 2 sets is plenty. Only one that's tricky is 10 reps. What I tend ot do is either do a lighter first set or last set than the other 2.
 
Sorry Chong, no mate I wasn't.

I was asking if my plan to stay at my current gym until the start of Aug on my current routine (but altering it slightly to do 8 reps per set with heavier weight) then leave and join the Pro Gym and then follow TT's routine was sound?

Basically I have to stay at current gym until 01 Aug 07, so it was what I did in that time. I can't start the new routine until I move gyms due to a lack of equipment.
 
If you can't follow the new routine yet then you don't have much choice other than to stick to your current routine. You could train in the 3 x 8 rep range of course.
 
Styles said:
If you can't follow the new routine yet then you don't have much choice other than to stick to your current routine. You could train in the 3 x 8 rep range of course.

I'll do that then. Thanks.

Really annoying me I can't join the proper gym now. I do struggle to hold my patience in check sometimes :(
 
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