A little help needed

Cambarker

Cambarker

Cambarker

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I currently use a Logitech G930 headset which apart from the comfort i am happy with, but the comfort issue (i wear glasses and the foam seems too firm in the Logitech's) is so bad that i am looking to upgrade to something nicer.

After reading around i have been looking at the AKG K702 Headphones with the Modmic (open to other suggestions) but there a few things i cant seem to decide on.

Sound cards, amps, dacs etc. - I cant seem to begin to get an idea on what i might need or what might be needed for certain headphones. Any help in this department on what to buy would be appreciated, i will list what i am mainly going to be doing with the headphones below.

Also do i need to make sure that what i get will do the surround sound/positional audio for gaming as these are stereo headphones?

Any Recommendations or advice on what to get?

Budget for the whole lot is around £300 but happy to go to £400 if there is good reasoning behind it as i don't know much about audio.

Other Info
Currently using on board sound on the MSI X99S Gaming 9 ACK

I will mainly be using them for gaming but also listening to music and when watching films.

Games i mostly play are like Arma and racing games where competitiveness isn't really that high but i do play some CS:GO but not often enough to sway a decision as i do want some immersion in other games.
 
Well AKG are traditionally very good for FPS games. I've owned AKG Q701 which are notoriously uncomfortable but that is because of the headband not the earpads, I wear glasses too and found them fine, the only thing I didn't like about them is where the cable comes out. For comfort purposes I would recommend Sennheisers, I own HD650 and often times I forget I'm wearing them they really are incredibly comfortable. And I would say once you own a pair of headphones like the HD650 there really is no reason to buy another pair of headphones again. I've had mine for over 3 years now, I've tried other headphones out of curiosity and I always go back to them. The problem is that they do indeed need an amp. But you can definitely get an amp + HD650 for less than £400. I used to had the FiiO E9 and that powered them fine.

If however you want something that doesn't require an amp, HD598 look just as comfortable as the HD650 (I haven't actually worn them but it's a similar design) and I don't believe they require an amp.

The HD650 are very good for music and films too, and I use them for CS:GO. And they are very very very comfortable even if you wear glasses.

You could get the Asus STX Sound card and HD650/HD598, that would be a very good combo that I think you would be happy with.
 
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I use my HD650 for music and it's superb for that but for gaming I use AKG K702 due to the much more expansive sound stage and positional accuracy. I've also done the port mod (just remove two internal sticky pads) on the K702s which adds a fair bit of bass without messing everything else up too much. It does slightly reduce the sound stage but it's still much bigger than the HD650s and the bass comes in handy for more immersive games and music, so it's a very happy medium.

I use an Asus Xonar Essence STX for gaming and it drives both of the above headphones very easily.

Another option would be the Philips Fidelio X2, which are more like the HD650 but with a somewhat larger sound stage and more detailed highs. They don't strictly need an amp as they are both efficient and have a low input impedance but they will sound better with a good sound card. You could get something like the Asus Xonar U7 external USB sound card as it does all the surround stuff but doesn't have as powerful an amp as the STX.

Any stereo headphone is able to provide convincing surround sound. The magic is done by the sound card, which produces virtual surround sound, whether it be Dolby Headphone or SBX. The sound card's DSP creates a binaural stream of the multi-channel audio data fed to it which mimics what you would hear when listening to 5.1 or 7.1. I played Skyrim for 1200+ hours using virtual surround using various sound cards and headphones and it can be very convincing when done right. It's actually the method used by the majority of gaming headsets, very few of them use more than two drivers.
 
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Thanks for the reply

@Mason- : Happy to buy a sound card/amp if its needed, saw a lot of recommendations for the HD650s, might have more of a look into them after both you and rids57 has mentioned them. Currently having issues with the cups pressing the frames of my glasses into my head.

@rids75 : So would you say that the AKG K702 with the port mod is a better all-round headphone than the HD650? (so it could be used for both rather than swapping between them as you have mentioned).

Looking at reviews etc. of the Philips Fidelio X2 at the moment and seem to be rated highly. Again would you say they are better all-round than the other two for "doing everything" (don't want to buy two sets for different tasks), if I have understood what you said correctly, they have a larger sound stage than the HD650 but being more like the HD650 would provide more immersion when needed than the AKG K702s?

Going to take a while to understand all this i think :)

I am guessing as you both mentioned it the Asus Xonar Essence STX is a good card to go for, and even if I did get the X2s it would be better to get the STX rather than a lower powered external USB sound card?
 
The STX is aimed squarely at people who want very high quality audio through headphones, it makes no bones about it, that's why there is no 5.1 or 7.1 speaker support, at least not unless you get the top of the line STX 2 with add on daughter board. Its main rival over the past few years has been the Creative Sound Blaster ZxR but with an output impedance of nearly four times that of the STX it has to be wondered just how serious they were about it. I've not used the STX II but there are no huge differences between it and it's older brother, it has different Op-Amps, a very low (sub 32ohm) gain setting for IEMs and that's about it.

One thing you might not like about the HD650s is they have a high clamping force, much, much higher than you get with the AKGs. I'm fine with it now but it did take some getting used to, although it was never really a problem with my glasses, just the clamping force can become a little painful until you are used to it. The reason it wasn't a problem with my glasses is that the HD650's ear cushions are extremely soft and the whole result is just a very snug fit, glasses and all. The AKG 702 cushions are a fair bit stiffer but with the much lower clamping force, no problem for glasses either.

Its very difficult to say which would be better in your case because you want them for everything.

The AKG K702 is a very lively headphone with a pretty flat frequency response curve, except for a few unruly spikes in the upper mid / lower high ranges. They also have one of the biggest sound stages of all and some serious detail retrieval abilities. This is what makes them one of the best headphones you can buy for competitive gaming as you can hear and place the other guy's footsteps before he has a clue you're there. On the downside though, as standard they are often describes as bass light, which is not precisely true, more like bass neutral, which can leave them slightly lacking in immersive gaming, music and movies. There is bass there and it goes very deep, it's just that there isn't a huge amount of it. This is where the port mod comes in, it adds up to 6db of bass and sub bass and it really does make a very audible difference. Surprisingly it doesn't seem to affect the mids or highs and only reduces the already enormous sound stage slightly. Once it's done I would say they are extremely good all rounders, though I do tend to equalize the high peaks down a little for music but I like smooth.

When it comes to smooth, the HD650s have to be the undisputed kings, nothing does mids like them. Coming from the AKG 702, when I first put them on I found the HD650 to sound almost muffled in comparison (known as the veil) but I stuck it out and after a couple of hours I just got it, my brain adjusted and I fell in love. There is plenty of detail there, it's just rolled off compared with a bright headphone like the AKG. When it comes to music, specially female vocals, Jazz, blues, etc the HD650s are absolutely wonderful, they are so relaxed you can just kick back for hours and enjoy the music, they are just not fatiguing in the slightest. This relaxed signature does come at a cost though in that the sound stage is much more intimate than the K702, the sound is much more obviously in your head and this isn't ideal for gaming, specially competitive gaming where all of those important positional cues are in the higher frequencies.

Another one to look at is the AKG K712 which builds on the K702 with memory foam ear cushions and hand matched drivers. The memory foam cushions not only improve the comfort even further but they also add several db in the bass and sub-bass regions. The sound stage isn't as massive as the K702 but there always have to be compromises between sound stage and positional audio vs bass, they really do seem to be mutually exclusive.

The Philips Fidelio X2 is another good all rounder with more bass than the AKGs and probably the HD650s too, though not as bass heavy as the old X1. They have a decent enough sound stage, again, bigger than the HD650 but less than the K702. They are also very comfortable with nice plush velour ear cushions like all of the others.

Basically you have a choice of four headphones with the AKG K702 at one end (lively with huge sound stage), the HD650 at the other (relaxed, lush mids, intimate sound stage) and the AKG K712 and Philips X2 in the middle. Performing the port mod on the K702 pushes it closer to the middle with the other two.

The two AKGs and the HD650 will need a powerful amp to sound their best so I would suggest the STX, whereas the Philips X2 requires very little driving so the cheaper Xonar U7 would do the job. I've not personally heard the U7, so I can't make a direct comparison for sound quality, maybe TwST or someone who has heard both could chime in.
 
I find it really odd that you think the HD650s have a high clamping force. I've never thought that and I have a really big head, maybe I got a loose pair? haha.

Mmm I did have HD25-i before them and they had really really strong clamping force so maybe it's that. I think it comes down to this:

If you want really good 'gaming' headphones with good positional sound, get the K702.

For comfort and an all round headphone take the HD650.
 
I'm currently sitting here, HD650's in place, listening to the remastered HD (24/96) version of "Stairway to Heaven" and that's pretty much where I am - sheer bliss :)
 
Still looking around, from what i have read the X2s are tempting :)

Just checking the AGK K702, are they comparable to the other 3 (K712s, HD650s, X2s), just asking because of the price difference? or are the other 3 "better" than the K702s?

I think i am leaning towards the X2s from what i have been reading and from what you have said. Need to look at the STX (not sure if old or STX II) a bit more but will probably get it anyway :)

Also when you are gaming or listening to music etc. and using "open" headphones, do you here a lot of background noise? i am not in a noisy environment but just want to know how quiet you need a room to be when using open headphones.

Thanks
 
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All of the four are open backed and it's like having a pair of speakers tied to the sides of your head. If you don't have the volume high then yes, you'll be able to hear sounds from your environment. The same is true the other way too, if you have the volume turned up then anyone in the same room will be able to hear the audio quite easily. Basically open backed headphones are not suitable for noisy environments or where there are other people in the room expecting peace and quiet - they are speakers after all and there is nothing there to prevent the sounds from escaping.

The K702 has been discounted for a while but was in the £200+ range at one time. The HD650 and K712 were both £300+ but have come down of late and the X2 has normally been in the £225~£250 range.

The newest of the four are the X2 and the K712, which for a while was the AKG flagship.
 
I wore them for five hours straight last night without any discomfort but I am used to them and they are well worn in - I'm not so sure I would have felt the same when they were new.
 
The HD650 is the best headphone I've ever owned because it has something other headphones seems to lack, emotion. It sounds great out of any half decent amp but will compare to phone's like the HE400i, AKG K712 etc. When you amp it with something with more power and a good tone they easily overtake those. It's the only headphone I have had that really scales with better equipment. That means it's potential is bigger.

The HD650 with a good amp has some snap to it with some lushness. It sounds best when ran from tube amps like the Little Dot MKIII and even the cheaper Vali. On amps like the E12, they can sound muted, low with isn't a bad thing for nighttime listening. It's a chameleon.

When I listen to the HD650 with my Schiit Valhalla and compare with the LCD-2 they sound equal from the mid bass to the treble with the LCD-2 only winning in bass extension. The LCD-2 sounds grainier at top and slightly more drier but only when compared. The LCD-2F is inferior IMO. HD650 is smoother, warmer equally detailed.

Buy the HD650 and the Little Dot MKIII then add Mullards M8161 tubes and you have a beast and hat should fit your budget
 
I think the HD650 is technically sound enough and it's soundstage, although intimate isn't tiny so I would say it's fine. I did some gaming with them recently and I felt they sounded not that much different to my X2 in the stage.
 
@Ryanr1987 - So you would recommend the HD650 over the X2s? From what other people have said and what i have read on reviews etc. I think i would prefer to have a larger soundstage and compromise a little on the intimate.

I am guessing any of the three is going to be a huge improvement on what i have owned in the past.

I am not finding much on the K712s, does anyone own and would be able to compare to the HD650 and X2s?
 
The X2 doesn't even have a particularly wide soundstage. When you start getting into wider soundstage category things start getting more dry. The HD650 is in a different league compared to these mid-fi dynamics and is(with a good amp) on par with headphones in much higher price points with also having the best mid range. The mids on the HD650 put it in a league of it's own.

If soundstage for gaming is your priority, forget the X2 and get the K701 or AD700x. If you want a balance between music and stage then K712 is what you are looking for.
 
Can game on the 600/650s though ideally you'd want a bit better separation/clarity (even at the cost of overall fidelity). I've played quite a bit of BF4 on my 600s without feeling like they were lacking.
 
Thanks for the help.

Going to get the AKG K712s, found them for £170 which seems like a good deal. It will be nice to have a good pair of headphones for once :D
 
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