Poll: Abortion, Roe v. Wade

[cheesyboy]

Quite. An American lawmaker made an interesting point and asked what male

No, you wouldn’t. Murder is defined as the unlawful killing of someone. Legal abortion isn’t murder. Stop calling it murder, it isn’t.

Murder is a legal term, so it is whatever the law says it is. But killing a nearly-full-term baby would certainly be a moral question mark.

If you kick a very-pregnant woman in the stomach and the baby dies, is it murder? I actually don't know, legally, but in a moral sense I think we would call it murder.

Killing a baby at a point where it could be birthed and very likely survive healthily seems bad in principle.

I had been under the impression abortions involved simply inducing birth. For early term pregnancy, this means the foetus dies. In later term, it wouldn't: it could be medically assisted and survive without any further input from the mother.

Having googled, I now see there is also a surgical option for abortion, but even this involved a doctor willfully killing a baby that would survive if birthed (talking late-term).

 

[bigmike20vt]

How is legal abortion murder?

We are talking hypothetically about allowing abortion to be available at “any point”. If this was the case then the law would be changed to reflect that.

I believe you should be allowed a relatively late abortion, I’m not willing to put a number on it as I’m not qualified to do so, but I would want that to be enshrined in law as the 25 weeks currently is.

fair enough..... but presumably it was the people qualified to do so who already came up with 24 weeks?

as medicine gets more advanced if anything the notion of what is viable or not to be able to survive is imo more likely to go backwards not forwards so i would say if the law gets changed in this country it is more likely the cut off date will be made earlier not later.

 

[Ahleckz]

fair enough..... but presumably it was the people qualified to do so who already came up with 24 weeks?

as medicine gets more advanced if anything the notion of what is viable or not to be able to survive is imo more likely to go backwards not forwards so i would say if the law gets changed in this country it is more likely the cut off date will be made earlier not later.

I don’t think medicine is going to improve to such a degree that it will be able to artificially do what pregnancy does. Anyway, we certainly aren’t there now so I don’t think we should be considering reducing it based on that theory.
Glad you now agree that legal abortion is not murder though.

 

[B@Th*nG]

proud of you ocuk. that's a great response.

 

[rare]

Legal or not doesn’t make it right. The idea that of it was ‘legally’ acceptable to have an abortion up to birth, that this somehow swerves the moral argument - it doesn’t. You are still killing something that is alive, and without intervention would be born.

At that point, to me it’s murder.

 

[bigmike20vt]

I don’t think medicine is going to improve to such a degree that it will be able to artificially do what pregnancy does. Anyway, we certainly aren’t there now so I don’t think we should be considering reducing it based on that theory.
Glad you now agree that legal abortion is not murder though.

I always agreed that legal abortion is not murder sorry if i was not clear.

however I dont think that any moral society would change the law to allow incredibly late term abortions because that would be murder.... so i guess it is a chicken and egg scenario. you say it is not murder because in this example it would be legal, I say it would (i hope) never be made legal because I believe it would be murder.

anyways i better do some work, i only came here to see what the bitcoin chat was (in another thread)...... no offence meant btw.

 

[something daft already!!]

Around 1% of abortions are because of rape. If you are pregnant and it wasn't rape, you should not be able to murder the life inside. Even those babies who were born out of rape would rather exist than not.

 

[DrToffnar]

proud of you ocuk. that's a great response.

Was honestly ready to have the eyes roll out my head but wow, fair play guys!

 

[bigmike20vt]

Around 1% of abortions are because of rape. If you are pregnant and it wasn't rape, you should not be able to murder the life inside. Even those babies who were born out of rape would rather exist than not.

it is a horrible truth that that should ever be a thing........... however surely if the worst was to happen to someone in that case surely the 1st thing they woudl do is take (multiple) morning after pills and make damn sure there are not 2 lines when they pee on a stick for the next few months following?

 

[cheesyboy]

Around 1% of abortions are because of rape. If you are pregnant and it wasn't rape, you should not be able to murder the life inside. Even those babies who were born out of rape would rather exist than not.

I suppose the obvious question is: why the rape distinction? Why is 'murder' ok then?

 

[cheesyboy]

it is a horrible truth that that should ever be a thing........... however surely if the worst was to happen to someone in that case surely the 1st thing they woudl do is take (multiple) morning after pills and make damn sure there are not 2 lines when they pee on a stick for the next few months following?

Lots of rape victims simply don't have that sort of access. And the trauma may mean not seeking help for some time. Blocking out the incident mentally.

 

[something daft already!!]

I suppose the obvious question is: why the rape distinction? Why is 'murder' ok then?

Rape is obviously an act of violence and can produce a baby. It is understandable if a woman would want to terminate a life created out of that.

 

[Lysander]

I suppose the obvious question is: why the rape distinction? Why is 'murder' ok then?

Oh Lawd, here we go

 

[cheesyboy]

Rape is obviously an act of violence and can produce a baby. It is understandable if a woman would want to terminate a life created out of that.

So it's a lack of empathy rather than a logical position

 

[Ahleckz]

So it's a lack of empathy rather than a logical position

i guess it comes down to what you value more, the rights and wishes of the woman or the rights and wishes of a bunch of cells.

 

[DrToffnar]

Rape is obviously an act of violence and can produce a baby. It is understandable if a woman would want to terminate a life created out of that.

So murder is fine because moral relativism? Come now. If the former justifies the latter to you then then the latter is fine in most circumstances. You don't get to choose based on some imaginary scale of moral tonnage.

 

[cheesyboy]

i guess it comes down to what you value more, the rights and wishes of the woman or the rights and wishes of a bunch of cells.

I'm arguing just that. Don't be distracted by the deliberately ambiguous way I composed the post

 

[cheesyboy]

To be clear: I strongly dislike rape being used as a reason to support abortion, because support for abortion shouldn't require a trauma.

Abortion is fine, it's not necessary to justify with extremes, as if other reasons are not enough. "I don't want a baby" is enough.

(I'm sure I'm guilty of using the rape argument myself in the past. But we're all growing and learning)

 

[something daft already!!]

So murder is fine because moral relativism? Come now. If the former justifies the latter to you then then the latter is fine in most circumstances. You don't get to choose based on some imaginary scale of moral tonnage.

I do not agree with abortion but I understand why certain circumstances would cause some people to want it.

 

[DrToffnar]

To be clear: I strongly dislike rape being used as a reason to support abortion, because support for abortion shouldn't require a trauma.

Abortion is fine, it's not necessary to justify with extremes, as if other reasons are not enough. "I don't want a baby" is enough.

/thread

You're first point especially is spot on. Outside of discussing when the ethical gestation for termination is I can't understand why the issue in general is still such a hot point, the fact it is shines a light on just how much further there is to go on key issues of equality.