Advice needed on whether i can reject a car

[j.col]

After some advice please.
Sorry for the long thread but there are a few things i need to explain.

Its my sons car that he purchased on 28th March.
I did have a similar thread before, as the EML light came on within a few days of purchase. you can read it here if you want https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/t...g-a-used-car-purchase.18986866/#post-37072408

So basically.
Within 5 days of purchase the EMl came on, it was diagnosed as a faulty O2 sensor. The dealer just reset the codes and said that the problem was fixed.
The EML was off but after a couple of days returned, and the dealer said that he would order a sensor in.

On the 20th May, my son got into the car, and the car would not move, either forward or reverse.
He informed the garage, and they said that they will send someone out to look at the car.

Couple of days later, 2 guys turn up, put a diagnostics on the car, but had to ring their mechanic to talk them through the process on how to clear the codes.
This was unsuccessful, so one of the guys said, that he will leave a car that they just picked up, for him to use and they left.

My son immediately informed the finance company what was going on.
Before the car was recovered, my son had a diagnostic check done, which showed quite a few other error codes.

The car was recovered a few days later and the garage told my son that he can hold onto the other car while they look at his.
My son at this time had lost all trust in the car and informed the finance company that he wanted to reject the car, only to be informed that the finance company were still waiting to appoint a claims handler.

Every few days my son would ring the finance company to be informed that they were still waiting to appoint a claims handler, which finally happened on the 12th June.
The dealer then took 12 days (today) to respond to the finance company.

Today the finance company has got back to my son saying that the cannot support the rejection.
The finance company was recommended by the dealer.
The dealer still has the car since the 20th May.
Btw its an independent dealer.
Their main argument seems to be that as my son accepted a courtesy car, that the dealer is entitled to repair the car. I have underlined this bit in their response

Here is a copy of the email from the finance company, are they able to do this or is it worth fighting it?

"
My understanding of your complaint

I understand the Engine Management Light (EML) has appeared and the vehicle went into limp mode.

Findings

You purchased your vehicle on 28 March 2024, with a mileage of 45,189. On 23 April 2024, we received a vehicle quality complaint from you confirming the issue with the vehicle. You confirmed that on 2 April 2024, the EML came on and the vehicle went into limp mode. You stated you reported this to the dealer and they confirmed it was due to the Oxygen sensor, they confirmed they would order the required part to fix the issue but you have not heard from them since.

We explained that as you had reported the fault within 30 days of purchasing the vehicle, we would require evidence of the fault. You sent us an invoice dated 26 April 2024, confirming a diagnosis that was completed on the vehicle.

You then emailed us on 20 May 2024, to say the gearbox had failed on the vehicle and the vehicle had been recovered.

Your complaint was allocated to my colleague, who attempted to contact you by telephone on 29 May 2024, but he was unsuccessful. Your complaint was then allocated to me and I spoke to you on 12 June 2024, you confirmed you were looking to reject the vehicle due to the reported fault. I said I would reach out to the dealer to request this.

I emailed the dealer and had no response but their account manager contacted me to say the vehicle was recovered by the dealer and is undergoing repairs. He also advised the dealer had provided you with a courtesy vehicle whilst the repairs are completed.

I then spoke to the dealer on 24 June 2024, to confirm they were having the vehicle repaired at no cost to you. They advised they were facilitating the repairs to the original issue with the sensor as previously agreed and that they were also repairing an issue that had recently occurred with the gearbox.

I contacted you by telephone on 24 June 2024, you are unhappy that we are unable to support rejection of the vehicle at this time. You reported this issues within 30 days and want to exercise your short term right to reject. I have explained that as the vehicle is undergoing repairs and you accepted a courtesy vehicle from the dealer, we need to allow the repairs to continue.

Once the repairs have been completed the dealer will liaise with you to arrange for the vehicle to be returned. Once you have the vehicle back, if the repairs are unsuccessful please contact me in the first instance.

Outcome

Based on the above information, I am able to uphold your complaint as the dealer has accepted liability for both the sensor and the gearbox faults by agreeing to complete the repairs at no cost to you.

I have arranged for £200 to be paid to you in consideration of the time you have spent trying to resolve this matter and for the inconvenience of having to return the vehicle to the dealer for repairs. This will be paid into the bank account we have on file for you within five working days.

I have also arranged for £30 to be paid to you for the cost of the vehicle inspection you arranged.

Please note that a payment of 8% interest will be added to your refunded payment for the vehicle inspection fee. This payments have been calculated up to 31 May 2023. The reason for this is because this is the rate of interest which the Financial Ombudsman sets.

This interest is subject to the deduction of income tax at source, which we have calculated at the basic rate (currently 20%).

This 20% income tax is only deducted from the compensation interest and not from your payments refund. Please see all calculations below. If we have deducted more tax than you have to pay, you may be able to reclaim all or some of the tax deducted from HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC).

If you pay tax at rates higher than the basic rate this interest should be declared to HMRC with any additional tax due being agreed with your tax office. You should retain this letter as evidence of the tax deduction. Please note this gross interest counts towards any Personal Savings Allowance

Payments where 8% interest applies;

• 26 April 2024 - £30 vehicle inspection fee

Interest - £0.39

Minus Basic Tax Rate at 20% (payable to HMRC) - £0.08

Interest after deduction of basic rate tax - £0.31

Total of payments plus interest after deductions - £30.31

This is our final response to your complaint. I am sorry you had cause to complain, I trust the above has answered your concerns in full and the outcome reached is to your satisfaction. If you believe I have misunderstood any part of your complaint or I have not addressed any issue you think should have been considered, please let me know as soon as possible.

Your rights

If you feel that we haven’t dealt with your complaint fairly, you have the right to refer it to the Financial Ombudsman Service, free of charge, but you must do so within six months of the date of this email.

If you do not refer your complaint in time, the Ombudsman will not have our permission to consider your complaint and will only be able to do so in very limited circumstances, for example, if the Ombudsman believes that the delay was as a result of exceptional circumstances. You can contact them at:

The Financial Ombudsman Service

Exchange Tower

London"

 

[jpaul]

Sounds reasonable on their part, with the sentiment that if you reject you basically have to stop driving the car and definitively tell them to collect it, rather than allowing them to repair, with courtesy car provided.

do you have a full record/paper-trail of what the error codes were, and will you get to know exactly what they are doing with the gearbox, such that an experienced mechanic might be able to determine if the problems are independent or related, and, to be able to solidly put a refund case if you subsequently have issues;
may need to get in writing what the warranty period on these repairs is.

 

[j.col]

Thanks for you reply.
My son has had a courtesy car now for 5 weeks and obviously it may have been a mistake accepting it.
He does have a couple of diagnostic reports saved.

Yeah, if he has to accept the car back he will need to know what work was done and also what warranty is on the work.
Here is a picture of one of the scans, which was shared with the finance company

 

[lordrobs]

That all reads ok to me. They are saying that as there are repairs underway and they have provided you a car that you can't reject it at this time. Those last three words are key as is the statement about contacting them if the repairs are unsuccessful and the acknowledgement of when the issue was first raised.

This is basically last chance for the dealer to make this right and hopefully they will see it like this also and will ensure the issues are resolved before the car comes back.

As for that diagnostic report... I think I'd take it with a pinch of salt. 25 & 26 for example. Same component and it's reporting both an open and short circuit, that isn't possible.

 

[Armageus]

Seems like a fair outcome given the £200 for your inconvenience and the inspection cost being refunded.

Let them repair it, and hopefully that's the end of your problems.

As above the "diagnostic" report isn't worth anything imo. Given that almost all of those are electrical faults and a "battery discharge protection activated" message, I'd say it's just a case of the car having an old/flat battery (or it was disconnected to try and clear codes). I'd expect most of those to either resolve themselves, or at least not reappear if cleared.



In the event that there is a further issue once repaired, then as long as it's within the 6 months since you bought the car, then you can still reject the car (although some amount will be deducted for the usage you've had).

Where did you buy the car from? - Problem with a used car

www.citizensadvice.org.uk

Spoiler: Citizen's Advice on car problem

Our advice for you​

You’re entitled to a repair if the car is faulty - but you should act quickly​

You’re legally entitled to a repair if something goes wrong with the car.
Because you bought the car in the last 6 months, the law says it must have been faulty when you bought it.
If the trader says the car wasn’t faulty when they sold it to you, it’s their responsibility to prove it. If you don’t agree with this proof, you might need to get your own evidence.
‘Faulty’ means the car is not:

• ‘of satisfactory quality’ - it should do what you’d expect for its age, mileage, price and type
• ‘fit for purpose’ - for example, if you asked for a car that would pull a caravan, it must be able to do that
• ‘as described’ - it must match the advert or the description the trader gave you
  If the problem fits into at least one of these categories, ask the trader to repair the car. If the trader takes too long (or it causes you too much inconvenience), you’ll be entitled to a partial refund.

What to say​

Let the trader know you understand what you’re entitled to. You can say something like this:
“Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, this car should be of a satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described. My rights have been breached because the car you sold me is faulty/doesn’t match the description. I would like you to put this right by repairing the car at your cost.”

Keep a record of what you’ve agreed with the trader​

Keep a record of your conversations and correspondence, and get all verbal agreements in writing - including when you can expect the car to be ready if you’re asking for a repair, and whether they’ll offer you a courtesy car in the meantime (they’re don’t have to do this but you could ask).

Your rights after the car’s been repaired​

You don't have to accept a second repair if something goes wrong and you'd rather not keep the car. You can ask for your money back if:

• the repair hasn't solved the problem
• another problem has developed

You may only get part of your money back, depending on how much you've used the car. You could also ask for a discount if you still want the car.

 

[ALD]

Thanks for you reply.
My son has had a courtesy car now for 5 weeks and obviously it may have been a mistake accepting it.
He does have a couple of diagnostic reports saved.

Yeah, if he has to accept the car back he will need to know what work was done and also what warranty is on the work.
Here is a picture of one of the scans, which was shared with the finance company

All of these faults are probably caused by a low battery and someone then cranking it.

 

[jpaul]

... so you don't yet know details of the gearbox issue, but absence of related codes in earlier report perhaps a good thing,
as it wasn't showing something that should have had attention then, and presumably? (e:earlier) important codes couldn't be cleared and hidden from inspection folks

 

[j.col]

Thanks everyone for your advice.

 

[sigma]

Can they point out which part of the law says that accepting a courtesy car forfeits your right to reject?

I think if it fails again I'm sure you can still reject as the 30 days reset.

 

[jpaul]

Can they point out which part of the law says that accepting a courtesy car forfeits your right to reject?

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/23 google "consumer rights opportunity to repair" say

(2)If the consumer requires the trader to repair or replace the goods, the trader must—

(a)do so within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to the consumer, and

(b)bear any necessary costs incurred in doing so (including in particular the cost of any labour, materials or postage).

he accepted having the goods repaired ?

 

[sigma]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/23 google "consumer rights opportunity to repair" say


he accepted having the goods repaired ?

There you go then it's in black and white. Section 6.

 

[ver01@]

Friend in a similar but probably more straightforward situation as it was a new car that developed a fault within a month. He accepted a courtesy car expecting that the dealer would repair his car in a couple of weeks but it is a month already and no idea when it will be ready. The courtesy car that "replaced" his EQC is a petrol A-class which is costing him more to run . Can he ask for a like-for-like replacement? Couldn't find anything in the insurance TCs.