Advice on getting into a software engineer degree apprenticeship.

[ThePilotWhoCantFly]

Hi, I'm looking at applying for a degree apprenticeship in software engineering.

The company is going to be migrating some of their legacy products to a cloud-native structure which I assume is AWS from the statement below,

"Working with services such as AWS and programming languages such as C#, Java and .NET".

I have GCSE and A-levels in Computer Science and ICT and for computer science, we used vb.net as the programming language for our coursework. After sixth form, I went on to truck driving for over a year and I don't remember much about computer science.

-Would gaining the AWS cloud practitioner certification before applying have a benefit or will it be a drawback?
-What could I do to increase my chances of getting into the apprenticeship?
-There are going to be assessments. Does anyone know what they will consist of (Programming, Computer science and ICT basics, etc.)?
-Would trying to learn the syntax/basics of the above programming language be of any help?

the deadline for applications is 11th of Feb 2024.

I appreciate all the help and advice.

 

[GravyMonster]

-Would gaining the AWS cloud practitioner certification before applying have a benefit or will it be a drawback?
Any qualification is worthwhile, although I'm not familiar with that one specifically. If it's more infrastructure-related and the job you're looking at is for programming, then your time may be better spent learning something else more relevant.

-Would trying to learn the syntax/basics of the above programming language be of any help?
Yes, absolutely. I'd start doing this immediately as it's the main skill you'll need in the job. If you already have some .Net knowledge (even if it is VB) would be helpful. C# is not too much of a jump to learn from there in terms of syntax.
If this is your first developer job I'd start learning SOLID principles and start getting an understanding of basic structural patterns.

 

[!bluetonic!]

Hello. Welcome to the forum.

The best you can do at the stage I feel you're at is to learn and get your own personal portfolio together, showing examples of your development in this field.

Get a GitHub account, get an AWS account and start practicing. PluralSight is great and look for free trials or discounts.

 

[peterwalkley]

Reading that job description, they're targeting "devops" ability. You'll (eventually) need to learn development (Java, C# etc) and operations (the AWS stuff). Pick one to start with - don't try and learn both at the same time, it will be overwhelming. In terms of an interview, the development side is likely easier to follow as there's tons of guides out there on the developer interview process (leetcode etc). Operations interviews tend to be more a pop quiz about random unix commands, can you write terraform scripts, explain what various AWS/Azure/GCP services do etc etc.

You can do the AWS learning largely for free. Create your own AWS account and go play with stuff and follow tutorials. Most of the services have a free tier and just make sure to delete things once you're done so there isn't an AWS bill hitting your credit card. One of the very early lessons in AWS is putting a cost limit on your account so that you can't accidentally run up a huge bill. I think I set mine to £10 per month and haven't got anywhere near that ever.

AWS Certifications cost money as you pay for the test. That's something you'd really want the employer to be paying for.

I would highly recommend skilling up the programming side first. Pay for developers is almost always better than for ops - certainly at similar experience levels.

 

[mid_gen]

For graduate level roles you need to demonstrate a base level technical ability, but we're going to be looking at you as a person mostly. Technical skills can be taught easily enough, if you're someone that demonstrates a character that is willing to learn.

Do some C# exercises. Make sure you can do basics like write a linked list on demand. Hopefully the employer is fairly enlightened and doesnt do stupid whiteboard tests.

Do you display initiative? (Make a portfolio)

Are you curious, do you ask good questions? (Have a good list of prepared questions before interview, put some questions in your application)

It's ok to not know things, it's what you do when you get stumped that matters. (Don't panic if you get asked something you can't answer, explain how you would go about solving it, don't just say "I don't know") .

 

[dowie]

I think some of the replies have misunderstood what is being asked about; this isn't a graduate role for starters nor would I conclude from a single sentence that it's necessarily anything related to dev ops. The leetcode suggestion is probably jumping ahead a bit too given that he's not yet started whatever programming 101 type module the course will offer.

Essentially, a regular BSc over 3 years = 3 * 8 month semesters + lots of holiday + tuition fees + debt. (Could source your own internships in the summer).

But a degree apprenticeship gives a BSc after 4 years of full-time work combined with study and often a graduate role with that same employer at the end of those 4 years. No tuition fees and no debt as the employer/sponsor pays the tuition and a salary (you do forego the long holidays though).

AFAIK the courses are a bit more practical/vocational, so perhaps if intending to go on to graduate study an undergraduate degree from a good research university would still be preferable, ditto to if aiming for an area where employers have "target" universities to recruit from. But it seems like a good option in the case where the alternative would be a regular degree and the same kind of job/employer targeted afterward anyway.

-Would gaining the AWS cloud practitioner certification before applying have a benefit or will it be a drawback?
-What could I do to increase my chances of getting into the apprenticeship?
-There are going to be assessments. Does anyone know what they will consist of (Programming, Computer science and ICT basics, etc.)?
-Would trying to learn the syntax/basics of the above programming language be of any help?

I can't see how an AWS certificate would be a drawback but I'd probably not focus on it too much, you mentioned two languages (perhaps initially focus on whichever one the university course will be teaching too).

There's no harm necessarily in directly asking them for details of the assessment either and whether there are any technical areas you need to focus on. I'd not worry too much about that though as I don't think they can really get too technical at this stage, after all this is an application for a training scheme aimed at 6th form/college leavers essentially, graduate-style software interview questions are 4 years away at this point! Perhaps you'd be better off reviewing the A-level computer science and ICT stuff you already studied since you mentioned you'd forgotten it and that's the level they're recruiting from.

It could well be the case that they're interviewing and conducting more generic assessments, just demonstrating that you're a team player/not a numpty and are motivated and keen on this career may be sufficient.

 

[bloodline76]

The aws course is good. But I would recommend going into roles for cyber security if heading into computers.

 

[NickK]

Hello.

BSc (Hons) Software Engineering and 27 years software industry experience here i also built and owned 42 services that made up the company AWS (we had 11 orgs so think of that as 11 companies)

First thing to say is AI is starting to put pressure on coding, initially it will be assistance but over time it will automate more and more. I don’t think it will completely replace it but is does change the dynamic of the roles that you will find. It’s worth adding data science and maths to your list of knowledge.

When you start, any experience is good but don’t stop learning.

AWS will help - coding will also make use of features of AWS so it’s worth working towards certifications. As you do other work your familiarity with it will help but AWS is constantly changing.
Yes AWS is infrastructure but thr blur between application and infrastructure is dissolving.

 

[mid_gen]

Hello.

BSc (Hons) Software Engineering and 27 years software industry experience here i also built and owned 42 services that made up the company AWS (we had 11 orgs so think of that as 11 companies)

First thing to say is AI is starting to put pressure on coding, initially it will be assistance but over time it will automate more and more. I don’t think it will completely replace it but is does change the dynamic of the roles that you will find. It’s worth adding data science and maths to your list of knowledge.

When you start, any experience is good but don’t stop learning.

AWS will help - coding will also make use of features of AWS so it’s worth working towards certifications. As you do other work your familiarity with it will help but AWS is constantly changing.
Yes AWS is infrastructure but thr blur between application and infrastructure is dissolving.

Since my last post on this thread 12 months ago, things have definitely changed. I think we're at the beginning of what could be a quite harsh contraction in the software engineering market.

The more I use AI tools to help with my workflows, the more obvious it is that we simply aren't going to need as many engineers in future.

I'd think quite long and hard about taking up any profession that involves typing at a keyboard right now.

 

[Brun]

Is the OP still driving trucks?

 

[Tram]

Since my last post on this thread 12 months ago, things have definitely changed. I think we're at the beginning of what could be a quite harsh contraction in the software engineering market.

The more I use AI tools to help with my workflows, the more obvious it is that we simply aren't going to need as many engineers in future.

I'd think quite long and hard about taking up any profession that involves typing at a keyboard right now.

Coding will be done by A.I, but will need to be checked by coders. There will be a need for coders but at a very reduced rate. Knowledge engineering and sematic technology will be the way forward, A.I will take over a lot of these jobs.

The importance now is in knowledge engineering, while the need for A I coders will be reduced in the near future.

However you still need to understand model algorithms, feature engineering and preprocessing. As it will be mostly need people for data manipulation over coding.

I would not moving into a pure CS degree these days or a apprenticeship. The whole idea of coding has now changed.

 

[dowie]

Since my last post on this thread 12 months ago, things have definitely changed. I think we're at the beginning of what could be a quite harsh contraction in the software engineering market.

The more I use AI tools to help with my workflows, the more obvious it is that we simply aren't going to need as many engineers in future.

I'd think quite long and hard about taking up any profession that involves typing at a keyboard right now.

I guess in the long run, there's some that would say there is no point in taking up any work... in the short term however, AI is a productivity enhancer.

I think in the immediate short term sure, if companies can save money from the increase in productivity then suddenly some team that would have been looking to hire a junior engineer now doesn't now need a junior engineer.

But moving further down the line from that... it's not so clear, typically productivity gains - > profits -> wanting to grow and capitalise on that profit. And lots more code -> lots more maintenance. For as long as there's a human in the loop then productivity/efficiency gains doens't necessarily mean job losses, historically the complete opposite has been true - > increased automation has led to increased wealth and better living conditions.

Is the OP still driving trucks?

Arguably that's going to be automated too - driving is mostly solvable now.

Coding will be done by A.I, but will need to be checked by coders. There will be a need for coders but at a very reduced rate. Knowledge engineering and sematic technology will be the way forward, A.I will take over a lot of these jobs.

The importance now is in knowledge engineering, while the need for A I coders will be reduced in the near future.

More of the same thing really, we'll no longer have programmers but we'll instead need people who can tell the computers what to do via a coherent and logical set of instructions...

I don't think any of those is necessarily a reason not to do a software engineering apprenticeship, main thing for someone in the OPs situation is to keep up to speed with the latest developments snd prepare to be adaptable.

Being in a tech firm and already adapting to AI and being ready to adapt further is still a better option IMO than avoiding tech altogether because of concerns about AI, it's going to impact most industries.

The same thing can be said re: artists or so-called "creatives" many of whom have been having a hissy fit about it, those who are adapting/able to work with it are much better placed.

 

[Tram]

I guess in the long run, there's some that would say there is no point in taking up any work... in the short term however, AI is a productivity enhancer.

I think in the immediate short term sure, if companies can save money from the increase in productivity then suddenly some team that would have been looking to hire a junior engineer now doesn't now need a junior engineer.

But moving further down the line from that... it's not so clear, typically productivity gains - > profits -> wanting to grow and capitalise on that profit. And lots more code -> lots more maintenance. For as long as there's a human in the loop then productivity/efficiency gains doens't necessarily mean job losses, historically the complete opposite has been true - > increased automation has led to increased wealth and better living conditions.



Arguably that's going to be automated too - driving is mostly solvable now.



More of the same thing really, we'll no longer have programmers but we'll instead need people who can tell the computers what to do via a coherent and logical set of instructions...

I don't think any of those is necessarily a reason not to do a software engineering apprenticeship, main thing for someone in the OPs situation is to keep up to speed with the latest developments snd prepare to be adaptable.

Being in a tech firm and already adapting to AI and being ready to adapt further is still a better option IMO than avoiding tech altogether because of concerns about AI, it's going to impact most industries.

The same thing can be said re: artists or so-called "creatives" many of whom have been having a hissy fit about it, those who are adapting/able to work with it are much better placed.

Automation in A.I is not the same as the automation. In manufacturing over the past 100 years. People say jobs would transfer, based it on past trends "workforce transformation" Jobs in the passed have moved into services and administration, were do you move from here? A.I = less jobs as less people would be needed. A.I call centers are now spring up, even bankers are losing their jobs to A.I agents.

I believe we are in the final stages of jobs for money, no workforce transformation. A.I will take over those jobs and very soon robots would be taking over the last unskilled jobs.

 

[OspreyO]

I think you are underestimating the ability of people and organisations to create labourious manual processes and bureaucracy. Also institutional road blocks. Like create a car but require someone to walk In front with a flag.

 

[Tram]

I think you are underestimating the ability of people and organisations to create labourious manual processes and bureaucracy. Also institutional road blocks. Like create a car but require someone to walk In front with a flag.

I don't believe the past example of workforce transformation will be our future workforce transformation.

 

[OspreyO]

Consider there are vast factories essentially hand assembling our electronics because people are cheaper than machines.

We can't build weapons fast or cheap enough to defeat people used as cannon fodder.

News these days is mostly garbage and untrustworthy because it's being generated automatically.

I'm still working with flat files because restrictions or cost of API licences.

Lowest common denominator.

 

[dowie]

Automation in A.I is not the same as the automation. In manufacturing over the past 100 years.

It doens't need to be, the principle is still the same conditional on there being humans in the loop - in that scenario, you're simply making humans more productive and that's not an issue. How many people do we need to work in farming these days? Go back far enough and that was what most humans were doing, now it's a tiny fraction.

If we're talking fully automated, anything a human can do can be done better by AI (and without any human in the loop) then sure, we're into a completely different ball game.

 

[Jupiter]

When the computer was becoming mainstream, there was a lot of chatter about a 4 day working week becoming the norm (because computers would do most of the work for us). Never the case. I fully see all future workplace transformations centering around squeezing more out of what we already do