Advise replacing in-ceiling speakers please?

Trojan Horse · 30 Nov 2014 at 00:07

Hi

I have a damaged ceiling speaker that won't work, seeing as its quite old now (5yrs) I would like to replace it

Firstly would mixing one brand of ceiling speaker with another cause compatibility issues?

Secondly could you recommend me to any ceiling speakers that arent too muddy or unclear.. just need something nice enough to power quiet music.

Just to put in context we have 10 or so speakers and this is just replacing the one near the front entrance.

Would the Bosch LHM 0606/10 be a good fit? If it is I will be replacing the entire set with it as they look nice.

I think OcUK allows links to products they dont sell, as they wouldnt' be competitors but I won't like as the first search on that rain forest site of the "Bosch LHM 0606/10" brings up what I want (£9.50 ea)

Please let me know what you think

thanks

Trojan Horse · 30 Nov 2014 at 12:24

bumpo

lucid · 30 Nov 2014 at 20:10

The Bosch speakers are 100 Volt line. They're the kind of thing you'd use for an office/factory/shop for background muzak; not for home audio.

The block you see on the back of the Bosch is a transformer. It converts 100V down to a level suitable to drive the speaker. Look at the size of the speaker magnet. It's tiny. That's one reason why the speaker is cheap. The magnet size influences sound quality.

Here's a picture of two other speakers. They're both supposed to be for home audio use. The one on the left is a proper budget multi-room speaker but it is used for background music in non-essential areas such as corridors and utility areas. It's a proper home audio speaker, albeit an inexpensive one, but it still has a tweeter and woofer and a proper crossover. Remember, this isn't even a Hi-Fi in-ceilling speaker yet, just a contract speaker for unimportant areas.

The one on the right is from Ebay and sold as a home audio/Hi-Fi speaker for about £40/pr. Compared to the Bosch the magnet is much larger. However, there is no crossover of any kind. They're trying to make one cheap driver do both bass and treble. Notice too how the speaker terminal wires go directly to the driver. There isn't even any overload protection.

Here's the front of those two speakers (again contract on the left, Ebay on the right). You can see the unit on the left has a smaller bass driver. It is 4" compared to the Ebay speaker at 5.25". Despite the driver difference the small contract speaker sounds much clearer. I know this because I had both here for a client demo.

This is what a proper 6.5" Hi-Fi in-ceiling speaker looks like. These are £100 each.

So your £10 each Bosch speakers aren't the right thing both technically nor quality-wise either. Who installed your original speakers and what did you pay per speaker? Is this commercial or domestic?

Trojan Horse · 30 Nov 2014 at 21:21

Hello

Thanks for the very detailed response

I should have clarified, this is for commercial use - It IS to play low level music (thought it would be clear when I said front entrance and the fact we have 10 speakers already lol)

The setup is hooked to some PA Amp, TOA 500 A-512E, and cd player, PD M603

What kind of sound could I expect to play from the bosch ones? and how would I go about replacing it?

Mainly want to use the Bosch because they look nice and not as fat as my old ones - hopefully they sound better? Just want the music to be a bit punchier not too much as long as there is something filling the ambiance.

Thank you very much btw

also - just like to say I have ordered the Bosch speaker (just one for time being), though you think it may not be the right move some googling has told me it is.

lucid · 30 Nov 2014 at 22:28

If you'd have said upfront it was commercial 100 volt line then the advice would have reflected that. We are good here, but we aren't clairvoyant.

Also, no one else took the time to respond to you thread which is why you had to bump it. This is primarily a domestic audio visual forum. You wouldn't have been the first or last person doing something with a domestic multiroom system and thinking they stumbled on a great way to save money without realising the product wasn't suitable.

I can't comment about the sound of the Bosch speakers because I have no idea what sound quality you'd find acceptable or the current speakers against which you are judging them. All I can say is that I personally wouldn't use some with such small magnets. I have my doubts about any product than can sell for as little as £6.77 and still return a profit for the manufacturer, the bulk shipper, the dealer, Ebay and whoever else has a thumb in the pie. Just look what happened with economy burgers.

I guess if you've ordered a Bosch already then you'll find out soon enough what it sounds like. My guess is if it's for background only at low volumes then as long as it makes a noise you'll be satisfied.

Fitting: it's usually a spring retaining clip system the same as downlighters.

Caged · 30 Nov 2014 at 22:43

'Punchier' is obtained with a decent quality low-end or separate sub. A sub-£10 100v line speaker will not be giving you that.

Trojan Horse · 1 Dec 2014 at 11:08

lucid said:
If you'd have said upfront it was commercial 100 volt line then the advice would have reflected that. We are good here, but we aren't clairvoyant. Also, no one else took the time to respond to you thread which is why you had to bump it. This is primarily a domestic audio visual forum. You wouldn't have been the first or last person doing something with a domestic multiroom system and thinking they stumbled on a great way to save money without realising the product wasn't suitable.

I can't comment about the sound of the Bosch speakers because I have no idea what sound quality you'd find acceptable or the current speakers against which you are judging them. All I can say is that I personally wouldn't use some with such small magnets. I have my doubts about any product than can sell for as little as £6.77 and still return a profit for the manufacturer, the bulk shipper, the dealer, Ebay and whoever else has a thumb in the pie. Just look what happened with economy burgers.

I guess if you've ordered a Bosch already then you'll find out soon enough what it sounds like. My guess is if it's for background only at low volumes then as long as it makes a noise you'll be satisfied.

Fitting: it's usually a spring retaining clip system the same as downlighters.

Hi there

Thanks for this, I know this is domestic which is why I did post to several forums and am thankful OcUk was first to reply

Anyways

What in ceiling speakers would you recommend,

and for installation would I have to splice and solder the wires? The image you link shows 4 wires, how would I go about removing the old one and installing this new one?

Would getting a new cd player/amp improve anything?

Also if possible could you link to a clear removal and reinstallation of a speaker setup? I would hire an engineer but this time near Christmas and just for one replacement would be way to costly - besides its broken anyway, its not like I can do any more harm!

lucid · 1 Dec 2014 at 12:46

For quality background music on a 100V line system then the speakers I'd normally use has an 7.5" bass driver and a tweeter. They sell for around £80 per unit. However, they might overpower what sounds like the more basic speakers you have (You still haven't said make and model BTW) because of their higher efficiency and a minimum power tapping at 1W.

An intermediate 7.5" speaker would probably be a better match. It's still high efficiency (90dB/W/m) but has 8 power tappings that halve each time from 8W down to 1/8th W. That makes it easier to match levels with most other existing 100 V line speakers. These are around £45 ea.

Use connector blocks for joining the wires. There are the white or clear plastic things with a couple of screw terminals.

New CD player to improve things: No. The CD player isn't the quality bottleneck. It's the existing speakers probably (again, you haven't said make/model, but it's usual for a buyer to try to economise on speakers first because "they all look the same".

Sorry, I haven't time to go trawling the web for install "How to" guides. If your existing speakers are installed in ceiling tiles then lift a tile down and have a look at the back. You should be able to work it out from there. The new Bosch speakers should come with fitting instructions.

Trojan Horse · 1 Dec 2014 at 19:21

http://i.imgur.com/hYTMHMw.png

http://i.imgur.com/4GHWJ1b.png

Hi

As requested images of speakers

I see the 4 pin interconnect, so just take the current one down and click in place?

Also would you know what the PHONES jack on the CD player connects with? It's too big for 3.5mm and so must be somethig else, 6.5mm perhaps? Need for mp3

Would you know why the player can't read discs and how I could use a cd cleaner?

Caged · 1 Dec 2014 at 20:42

Trojan Horse said:
http://i.imgur.com/hYTMHMw.png

http://i.imgur.com/4GHWJ1b.png

Hi

As requested images of speakers

I see the 4 pin interconnect, so just take the current one down and click in place?

It depends what the speakers are. The datasheet will have a pinout.

Trojan Horse said:
Also would you know what the PHONES jack on the CD player connects with? It's too big for 3.5mm and so must be somethig else, 6.5mm perhaps? Need for mp3

That will be a 1/4" headphone jack. Not an input.

Trojan Horse said:
Would you know why the player can't read discs and how I could use a cd cleaner?

Because it's broken.

I'm going to be as short as lucid here, this is a discussion forum, commercial system discussion really doesn't benefit other members. You are clearly out of your depth, half a day with someone who knows what they are talking about will probably have everything sorted. It's not that close to Christmas, and seeing as you see a commercial value in having music working in your premises, pay up.

Trojan Horse · 1 Dec 2014 at 20:48

Just found the speakers I currently have

http://www.dnh.no/speakers/blc-550t-383.aspx

Also the Bosch have four lines but these are only black and red wire?

http://i.imgur.com/p5xbJtq.png

http://i.imgur.com/9jRONh3.png

Trojan Horse · 1 Dec 2014 at 21:30

Caged said:
It depends what the speakers are. The datasheet will have a pinout.

That will be a 1/4" headphone jack. Not an input.

Because it's broken.

I'm going to be as short as lucid here, this is a discussion forum, commercial system discussion really doesn't benefit other members. You are clearly out of your depth, half a day with someone who knows what they are talking about will probably have everything sorted. It's not that close to Christmas, and seeing as you see a commercial value in having music working in your premises, pay up.

Although your tone is off and your attitude is negative this is what I wanted to hear. I will be replacing the CD player now that I know it is broken (I just thought maybe the CD area needed a clean or something, like with AV players) with a Yamaha CD player: Yamaha CDS300BL

This will play MP3s - will this play music from an MP3 player? I have a Philips mp3 player that I can use but don't think it will support because iOS devices are probably very different (says supports iPod), but am definetly sure it can play music off a memory stick (will have to find out how to sort the music it plays).

Also should I replace the Red and White RCA interconnects? Theres not much point in doing that is there, as its pretty poor speaker anyway?

Also the commercial property is not mine and the speakers have literally no value. There just there and don't really serve a purpose other than background music - they can live with out it but its nice to just have it there whilst working.

Special thanks to Lucid for helping me out so much though!

lucid · 1 Dec 2014 at 22:36

Your thread reads "in-ceiling speakers", but the DNH speakers aren't in-ceiling at all; they're on ceiling, same as fitting a smoke detector. The DNH make use of a mounting plate from which hangs a speaker in an enclosure.

This is a good news/bad news scenario. Good because at least there's some spec to go with the speakers. Bad news because (where to begin)....

1) an enclosure tends to improve the sound of a speaker, so I think your £10 Bosch is going to have an even tougher job to compete

2) the Bosch requires a hole to be cut in to the ceiling for fitting. This then may also require an in-ceiling fire hood to comply with building regs for fire protection

3) the DNH speakers are designed for clean-room environments which then begs the question why you have them installed in your commercial property; is that significant?

You are in over your head as Caged said. You should have disclosed all of this upfront. Instead, you've left out what could be crucial details and I'm even less confident now that we have anything like the full picture from you.

You don't know what you're doing and the money you seem to want to spend to fix something is quite frankly a joke. Cut your losses now. You've only spent £10 and wasted a bit of our time here. Get somebody in local who can sort out your system properly.