Am I Being Unreasonable?

Arthur Hucksake

Arthur Hucksake

Arthur Hucksake

Soldato
Joined
14 Dec 2010
Posts
3,030
Location
Nottingham
Hi all,

In about 8 weeks time I am expecting to go on to a permanent 4 on / 4 off nightshift pattern. Their offer is a 17.5% shift premium.

Fine I thought...right up until I worked out its an additional 150 hours a year and the real kicker, there is no extra pay to cover these additional hours effectively eating into the 17.5%.

To me this doesn't seem right. I have two kids and I'll be working Xmas night for no extra hourly rate, basically ruining Xmas and they expect me to take a salary cut. (Discounting the unsociable premium)

Is it wrong to expect remuneration for these extra hours worked?
 
Unreasonable? No probably not. Reason doesn't really come into it though - it will all depend on your contract.

Personally I would bring it up with them and see what they have to say.
 
I'd say they know full well the savings they're making and that is why they're making the changes, worth bringing up but don't expect them to be surprised or apologetic.
 
dont forget though you will only be working 6 months of the year. wish i was still on 4 on 4 off tbh. Night rate is usually 33% more than working day shift so i would that adding in on top but 4 on 4 off really is a great shift pattern
 
If your total hours are going up then your pay should go up to reflect that, plus an uplift for nights.

Edit: 'Should' as in what sounds fair, not should as in the law.
 
Without knowing your current shift pattern/hours it's hard to say.

4 on 4 off seems pretty decent and perhaps worth the sacrifice of xmas eve night if it gives you more time the rest of the year.
 
I'm out of touch with civilian pay expectations, but from what I can see surely it depends how many hours you currently work?

For example, if you work the standard 37.5hr week, with 30 days holiday, that's 1725 hours per year. Your 150 hours extra works out as 8.7% of this. I'd say an extra 17.5% pay for an extra 8.7% work isn't all that bad; in effect you are being paid double time for 150 hours per year. You have to take in to account other things that are personal to yourself to decide whether it's worth it. How valuable is having 4 days off at once to you? It works both ways really, it isn't just the employer that is getting more out of you as it may in fact improve your lifestyle in some ways. In fact, in this instance, it seems like they're losing out as they're paying you more for each hour than before (if the above example is correct!).
 
Zefan said:
I'm out of touch with civilian pay expectations, but from what I can see surely it depends how many hours you currently work?

For example, if you work the standard 37.5hr week, with 30 days holiday, that's 1725 hours per year. Your 150 hours extra works out as 8.7% of this. I'd say an extra 17.5% pay for an extra 8.7% work isn't all that bad; in effect you are being paid double time for 150 hours per year. You have to take in to account other things that are personal to yourself to decide whether it's worth it. How valuable is having 4 days off at once to you? It works both ways really, it isn't just the employer that is getting more out of you as it may in fact improve your lifestyle in some ways. In fact, in this instance, it seems like they're losing out as they're paying you more for each hour than before (if the above example is correct!).
Click to expand...

that is a very dubious way of looking at it as you've not taken into account working unsociable hours - something that is generally undesirable in civilian workplaces and often compensated for

assume his hours didn't increase but he's still got to work unsociable hours including over Christmas for a boost of just under 10%?

if they normally compensate for anti social hours with a 17.5% boost to pay then he's probably right to fee aggrieved

OP is that % uplift standard across the team/company - if so maybe just point out that your hours have also increased by X% so you'd expect an uplift of X% then 17.5% for the extra hours and unsociable hours

having said that it seems like a naff deal in general especially as it involves you being permanently doing antisocial shifts rather than the occasional few days each month
 
AndyCroft1982 said:
dont forget though you will only be working 6 months of the year. wish i was still on 4 on 4 off tbh.
Click to expand...

That all depends if he is doing 12 hour shifts. 'Only working 6 months of the year' is utter tosh. You work until late at night and have to get up early in the morning, you get no time after work to do anything and are normally in bed at 9pm to get up for the early start. You work the same hours as a mon-fri 9-5. Where as a 9-5 (or 8-4 that seems to be the norm now) you get plently of evening to do stuff.

OP are you sure you will work 150 hours more? Dont forget to divide the total hours worked in the year by 52, not by 12. This will get your average hours. I cant see that you will be working 150 extra hours.

4 on 4 off day/nights is a very good shift. I'd look at getting at least 30% shift allowance though. If you DO work more hours one year it will likely balance its self out the next year. And dont forget you only need to take 4 days off (always take nights off!) and you have 12 days holiday.

We do 5 on 5 off 12 hour days followed by 11 hour nights and it works very well. Take 55 hours off and I get 15 days off.

Will you be working bank holidays? If not then you should get them ontop of your normal holidays days.
 
Last edited:
I wouldn't do it for that uplift. In the past I've demanded 35% for that shift pattern and even then I got sick of it after 6 months and came off shifts.
 
Arthur Hucksake said:
Hi all,

In about 8 weeks time I am expecting to go on to a permanent 4 on / 4 off nightshift pattern. Their offer is a 17.5% shift premium.

Fine I thought...right up until I worked out its an additional 150 hours a year and the real kicker, there is no extra pay to cover these additional hours effectively eating into the 17.5%.

To me this doesn't seem right. I have two kids and I'll be working Xmas night for no extra hourly rate, basically ruining Xmas and they expect me to take a salary cut. (Discounting the unsociable premium)

Is it wrong to expect remuneration for these extra hours worked?
Click to expand...

formy night shift of monday Tues wed Thursday (4 on 3 off) i get a 29% uplift.

so that seems really harsh cause im guessing you're doing 12 hour shifts?

#ours are 8.75 +30 mins unpaid break
 
In my industry there would be rostered days off to bring that back down to the equivalent of a 37.5 hour week. Double check their aren't additional non leave days off to preserve the premium. Personally if they expect you to work an additional 150 hours a year I would expect my pay before uplift to go up proportionally and then have the uplift added, otherwise its a mickey take. Oh yeah and check out how your new hours stack against the working time directive.
 
dowie said:
that is a very dubious way of looking at it as you've not taken into account working unsociable hours - something that is generally undesirable in civilian workplaces and often compensated for

assume his hours didn't increase but he's still got to work unsociable hours including over Christmas for a boost of just under 10%?

if they normally compensate for anti social hours with a 17.5% boost to pay then he's probably right to fee aggrieved

OP is that % uplift standard across the team/company - if so maybe just point out that your hours have also increased by X% so you'd expect an uplift of X% then 17.5% for the extra hours and unsociable hours

having said that it seems like a naff deal in general especially as it involves you being permanently doing antisocial shifts rather than the occasional few days each month
Click to expand...

I didn't make it clear.

It's 12 hour shifts. So effectively my working week (over the year) is increasing from 37.5 hrs to 40.5 hrs a week give or take.

The thing that annoys me most is their attitude.

Only two senior staff went for the roles. They can't hire a senior in from outside of the business because a prerequisite is six months experience in the role at a lower level.

If we both opt out, they will have serious issues. I'm not sure why they are being so awkward. It's not a cost cutting exercise, it's actually expansion.
 
so you want an 8% increase for the extra hours worked then the 17.5% uplift (assuming that is simply the standard uplift at your company) for the anti social aspect of those hours

so a 26.9% raise - though that isn't really a pay rise, it is simply you working extra hours + getting a shift uplift based on your current basic... if you're taking on extra responsibility etc.. then push for more just as you would do if taking on more responsibility when working normal hours/9-5

frankly, with a family, I'd be inclined to just tell them you're not interested in working nights
 
Last edited:
dowie said:
so you want an 8% increase for the extra hours worked then the 17.5% uplift (assuming that is simply the standard uplift at your company) for the anti social aspect of those hours

so a 26.9% raise
Click to expand...

Basically, yes.

I think that's fair. I even put forward an in between figure, so more like 22%.

This contract is worth absolutely millions to them then some. The project is £2bn easy. All I want is fair pay for what they are asking.
 
Arthur Hucksake said:
Basically, yes.

I think that's fair. I even put forward an in between figure, so more like 22%.

This contract is worth absolutely millions to them then some. The project is £2bn easy. All I want is fair pay for what they are asking.
Click to expand...

I think it's fair as well. Everyone deserves a fair days pay for a fair days work. It doesn't sound like their proposal covers their side of the bargain.

If they were be that intransigent with me, I'd tell them to do one. Goodwill should swing both ways.
 
amigafan2003 said:
Goodwill should swing both ways.
Click to expand...

It should do, but it almost never does, and hasn't since the Unions lost all power. The OP is at least being offered an uplift - many companies would just point to the small print of the contract and demand that they suck it up or resign.

Bearing in mind that there is endless evidence that night shifts shorten your life, a decent rise is the least they could do.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom