Amp(s) for B&W 802Ds

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Hi all,

I recently picked up some B&W 802ds and looking to upgrade my amplification as I need more power to drive these.

Current set up choices are either:
Cyrus 8XPD Qx or Arcam Alpha 10

Cyrus is 70W and Arcam 100W so neither sufficient for these speakers.

I’m looking for an upgrade path from here.

Options I am looking at:
(1) Adding additional Cyrus power amp eg X Power to bi-amp. Benefit is that it is relatively cheap but doesn’t add that much power. Cost c £400
(2) Adding Cyrus X300 signature monoblocs. Add a lot of power but not sure if I can use my Cyrus 8 as a pre amp with these? Cost c £2.5k
(3) completely different set up (eg Classe pre/ AMP2 could be picked up for about 2k)

I’m leaning towards trying to use my Cyrus 8 as it has a built in DAC and I mainly just stream so helpful for that but open to other options.

Thanks for any advice.
 
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why would you think 70-100W isn't enough? They're 90db efficient that's quite efficient. Those B&W are 3.5ohm so you need a amp with a good PSU.

Yes having hundreds of watts is good, but it's not required.
 
They are rated 50-500W into 8 ohms (ie 70-100w very much the bare minimum) and are famously difficult to drive. Also listening to them vs the test set up of the chap I bought them off, they are struggling at the bottom end.
 
Depends how much you want to spend. If you want a whole new setup and have the time and funds to trial some things then it seems like an ideal opportunity.

If your Cyrus 8 suits you, then the simplest option would seem to be to buy another power amp (+/- PSX-R). If you don’t like it, then you’d probably not lose any cash reselling it.

Why can’t you use the 8 to drive 2 mono blocks? If the 8 has a pre-out (which it seems to) then it should be ok.
 
Probably over your budget but these would be end game amps

 
I would be looking at something big, American and with a lot of class AB grunt.
I wouldn’t be keeping the Cyrus.

Something like Levinson, Krell, Mc or similar. I’d avoid class D. Look great on specs, but not as interesting (IMO).

Another potential option could be something like a Meridian 557 or preferably a 559.
 
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Hi all,

I recently picked up some B&W 802ds and looking to upgrade my amplification as I need more power to drive these.

Current set up choices are either:
Cyrus 8XPD Qx or Arcam Alpha 10

Cyrus is 70W and Arcam 100W so neither sufficient for these speakers.

I’m looking for an upgrade path from here.

Options I am looking at:
(1) Adding additional Cyrus power amp eg X Power to bi-amp. Benefit is that it is relatively cheap but doesn’t add that much power. Cost c £400
(2) Adding Cyrus X300 signature monoblocs. Add a lot of power but not sure if I can use my Cyrus 8 as a pre amp with these? Cost c £2.5k
(3) completely different set up (eg Classe pre/ AMP2 could be picked up for about 2k)

I’m leaning towards trying to use my Cyrus 8 as it has a built in DAC and I mainly just stream so helpful for that but open to other options.

Thanks for any advice.
Hi which version of the D series are they? I am an owner of 802 D2. Not being funny neither of your current amplification will cut it.

I am not so sure that the x300 will drive them how they can potentially sound. Let me elaborate...

There are no/ any Diamond 802 D1/D2 users that I know of who use anything outside of Mcintosh, Classe or Burmester. There are a number of reasons why. The Diamond series are extremely forward sounding at least the D1/D2 series are. We are literally talking about putting the musical performance smack bang in your face. There are some sonic differences between the 802 D1 and 802 D2. The D1 variants are brighter than the D2's.

The bass on the 802 is a lot and lesser amplifiers can't control it. 801 d2 in comparison is more controlled. The 802 D2 are for the people who love a lot of bass.

The impedance can drop as low as 1.8 ohms and is an extremely tough amp to drive.

The speaker is very very picky about amps. Hence why most owners stick to Mcintosh, Burmester or Classe. Lets take a dive into each brands pro and cons. I have never came across a speaker before which sounds terrible with everything else regardless of cost besides those 3 brands. Tried a 8k integrated which didn't sound all that bad with it. But just didn't make them sing.

So a Bowers Diamonds speaker is extremely sterile sounding, it's not a musical speaker like say a Pm-1 or the old 805 signature series speaker. So most diamond owners go with amplification go with something that adds a bit of tonal warmth/smoothness. Take the Mcintosh lovely tonal sound but I never liked the bass handling of really really bass heavy tracks. Could never control the bass like a Burmester or Classe could. Fine for jazz, easy listening type of music. you would also need the monoblocks to drive the diamonds. Would cost you quite a bit. Probably around 10k for the latest monos although you could buy used on the older monos.

Classe Nice smooth sound and controls the bass quite nicely although I did find it lacked that oomph for my tastes. Prices are pretty reasonable and you could certainly do it on a more wallet friendly budget. I liked the Mcintosh sound more overall even though it didn't tick all of the boxes for me.

Then we have Burmester. The most expensive of the three options listed. It far more expensive than the McIntosh but probably the one that ticks most of the boxes. It very smooth sounding but not as tonally warm as the Mcintosh. I do like tonally warm sounding setups in general but this was just so sublime. ANd it handled the Diamonds bass and the extreme nature of the diamonds forward sounding musical performance the best out of the three. You would be look at the likes of something like 911 mk3 or 2x956 mk2. The 911 mk3 is more capable then the 2x956 mk 2 but it is a lot more.

There maybe some viable other alternatives that I have not tried the the Audio Research Mono's or maybe pass labs (although they run stupidly hot).

I am not gonna lie. It been a total pain in the butt on my journey with 802 D's but the end sounding result has been worth it. It has terribly hard to make them really sing. Far more than other speakers/setups I have owned. But in general I have always found that to be true of the Bowers speakers compared to say other manufacturers. When I was looking for a speaker many moons ago before I got the Diamonds the other one I had shortlisted was the JBL 4355 fully restored from Kenrick Sound, Japan. I even got in touch with them to find about cost, shipping, warranty service and all that.

And as you are about to find out way way more costlier than other setups you have owned. The world is your oyster when it comes to pre-amp/dac but you should be aware you have a fairly high end speaker and it very nature sound wise will expose your setup unapologetically.

If you have any other quieries feel free to msg me either here or personal message.

I also forgot to add when doing the post in the early hours I have been a Cyrus user in the past so am fairly familiar with the sound.

As for pre-amps/dacs I have had good experience when using the chord hugo dac TT and all sorts ranging from £400-£14k that I have owned and from long term ownership. The chord dac was affordable and more than capable. While the Diamonds are kinda old now and have been surpassed by the Wilson Sofias and Martens speakers in terms of resolving the sound and transparency it was at one time the most used speaker in recording studios and post sound production.

Can the Cyrus 8 you own do it justice? Not even close but can you enjoy it is an entirely different question.

Whenever someone ask should I get the old D1/D2 variants I always tell them no.

They are picky about placement, they are picky about amps and requires at least 5 figures invested into it. Go onto google and search for any 801/802 D2 setup and none of those setups are sub £20k.

Even used the speakers hold their value the current market price average is around 5.5k-6.5k.
 
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Just buy my Lyngdorf SDAI2175 and enjoy the 200W@8ohm goodness.

Powered my inefficient ATCs incredibly well, so some efficient B&Ws would be a breeze.
 
Just buy my Lyngdorf SDAI2175 and enjoy the 200W@8ohm goodness.

Powered my inefficient ATCs incredibly well, so some efficient B&Ws would be a breeze.
The efficiency is not the issue it’s the 1.8 ohm dip which kills amplifiers.

Bowers D2’s eat lyngdorf amplifiers for breakfast, brunch. Lunch, tea and supper.

A few 800 series owners have tried them and they run out of grunt. While ATC may be inefficient they have a less problematic impedance presented to the amp.

They tested the Lyngdorf 3400. Class D tend not to do so well with the D2’s.

Although I find it highly comical that a bunch of 800 series owners try to run a set of speakers which is notoriously difficult to drive with bunch of 1k-2k class D amps.

If they need to go the Class D route why not go the Jeff Rowland route. The last thing I saw that made me laugh was a 800 series owner trying run his setup on Emotiva amps. 6 months later they magically transformed into Mc Monoblocks.
 
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They are picky about placement, they are picky about amps and requires at least 5 figures invested into it.

Maybe if you are buying new, but if you shop smart used there is you don't need to spend anywhere near that now. I had a pair of 802's when I used to work in the trade, and yes they were a pain to drive (still are) but no reason to buy new kit if he bought the speakers used. I found a lovely example of a used McIntosh Ma7000 for £1900 (after negotiation) when a colleague was in a similar predicament, it also depends if you are willing to travel to get something so large and listen to it etc.
 
Maybe if you are buying new, but if you shop smart used there is you don't need to spend anywhere near that now. I had a pair of 802's when I used to work in the trade, and yes they were a pain to drive (still are) but no reason to buy new kit if he bought the speakers used. I found a lovely example of a used McIntosh Ma7000 for £1900 (after negotiation) when a colleague was in a similar predicament, it also depends if you are willing to travel to get something so large and listen to it etc.
Ma7000 is the integrated isn’t it? I remember it. I mean he could source a pair of mc601 used.but even then that will still cost even with depreciation but Mc’s tend to hold their value, at least the monos do.

What 802’s did you have? I have only ever demo’ed the Mc monos. Never even considered the integrated after testing an integrated class D amp with like 2x300w could have been more and it sounded all right but didn’t really make them sing.
 
Ma7000 is the integrated isn’t it? I remember it. I mean he could source a pair of mc601 used.but even then that will still cost even with depreciation but Mc’s tend to hold their value, at least the monos do.

What 802’s did you have? I have only ever demo’ed the Mc monos. Never even considered the integrated after testing an integrated class D amp with like 2x300w could have been more and it sounded all right but didn’t really make them sing.

Yep the MA7000 is the integrated, there are better options but it was just an easy example of an all in one solution that will allow the 802's to perform well, and if bought at the right price and as you have said, will lose very little money if needing to be replaced sooner rather than later. I had the original 1999 Nautilus 802's, sadly I didn't keep anything very long back then, as I had access to so many things it was just, what's next ,what's next, what's next etc. My 802's were run with Linn Klimax Solo's which I never actually owned, just were on long term loan, they sounded great.
 
That explains a lot about Mc integrated being able to drive the 802N. But after that they released the D1 and then D2 versions whihc are even more difficult to drive than the 802N. There is a star studded list of manufacturers who offer the all in one super integrated from the likes of Mc's to Luxman and they are get tripped up by the D1/D2 variants. 200w, 300w, and they all shut down to protect themselves. When you see Mc setups with the 802d2 usually you see them flanked by the Mc501 (500w) or Mc601 (600W). I did entertain the thought of getting the Ma9000 when I was looking for amps to pair them with. A very good friend told me not to get it as it can't handle it.

I get why people try and see if they can drive it with Class D amps 1k-2k amps but deep down I know it won't work. It has an almost cult like status on how difficult they are to drive. Of course people want to drive it with class D as paying like what 1k, 2k? is a shedload cheaper than going the Mc, Burmester, Audio Research route.

Like when you see 802 D2 for sale ads you never see the disclaimer they are extremely difficult to drive. Like way more difficult than you expect. I would put the 802 D2's in the same tier as the original Thiels Cs5 and Apogee Scintillas.

It will be interesting to see how the OP goes amplification wise. I think if he goes with the old Classe. Like the old Classe Ca-m600 not the newer class D offerings they would sound really good. Or at least as good as it can get within a 'reasonable' budget and then stay away from ever hearing a set of Mcintosh monos or a Burmester powered 802 D's. The Classe is extremely good with them but a Mc mono or Burmester setup is in a totally different tier.
 
That explains a lot about Mc integrated being able to drive the 802N.

I think you mis-read what I posted the McIntegrated (new term/food item?) wasn't mine, that was driving 802D's for someone I worked with, as I said I had Klimax Solo's on my 802N's.

It will be interesting to see how the OP goes amplification wise. I think if he goes with the old Classe. Like the old Classe Ca-m600 not the newer class D offerings they would sound really good. Or at least as good as it can get within a 'reasonable' budget and then stay away from ever hearing a set of Mcintosh monos or a Burmester powered 802 D's. The Classe is extremely good with them but a Mc mono or Burmester setup is in a totally different tier.

There are plenty of solutions out there that will drive them well you don't have to go for a one or two box solution, and it depends how patient you are when looking for a bargain at the higher end. Always a hard choice when buying speakers first, good thing is you can always move something along if it isn't doing what you'd like/expect. :)
 
@Mr_Sukebe i don’t know what is about Class D I dislike for music. I love the principle of it cheap price for lots of power. Great for home cinema/gaming setups I have a few here that I love but when it comes to listening to music I often find them ‘dry’ that is I tend to find they lack the last bit of musical involvement. I prefer solid state or tube amp for music listening.
 
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@Mr_Sukebe i don’t know what is about Class D I dislike for music. I love the principle of it cheap price for lots of power. Great for home cinema/gaming setups I have a few here that I love but when it comes to listening to music I often find them ‘dry’ that is I tend to find they lack the last bit of musical involvement. I prefer solid state or tube amp for music listening.

I can't say I disagree, and that's despite owning and enjoying a Bel Canto Evo2 power amp for several years.
I've heard several types (the BC was a Tripath). Have also listened to one of the newer BC Icepower (IMO far less interesting than the Tripath). I've probably heard one of the newer units, but frankly, don't really care anymore.
I'm currently running a grunty US Class AB now, love it. Don't get me wrong, it uses stupid amounts of electricity (400w on standby) and takes a good 30 mins to warm up and sounds it's best. However, once it does, it's awesome.
 
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I can't say I disagree, and that's despite owning and enjoying a Bel Canto Evo2 power amp for several years.
I've heard several types (the BC was a Tripath). Have also listened to one of the newer BC Icepower (IMO far less interesting than the Tripath). I've probably heard one of the newer units, but frankly, don't really care anymore.
I'm currently running a grunty US Class AB now, love it. Don't get me wrong, it uses stupid amounts of electricity (400w on standby) and takes a good 30 mins to warm up and sounds it's best. However, once it does, it's awesome.
Bro I know it audio research….had I not gotten my current amp it would have probably an audio research monos.

I fell in love the the AR 160s integrated amplifier and could have straight swapped it for my current amp and I am NGL it was 50/50. Then I saw and heard the 160 monos and that was another touch and go moment. The only reason I didn’t is because by that time I self imposed a limit of 20k of audio purchases as I know if I hear something I like I usually tend to get it.

There is one person I know of who has the full AR setup the monos and everything. He is also a diehard Bowers Diamond fan. He has like the 800, 801, 802.

One of the very few quite possibly the Diamond series owner who went outside the 3 recommended amps.
 
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That is a beast, 500W per channel into 8ohms… my newly purchased Cyrus Stereo 200 amp only does 175W in 8ohms.

I’m feeling a bit deficient now, despite 500W being almost an obscene figure.

I realise outright power is only part of the equation, but it does make my wallet twitch.
 
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