Another Scary moment at Spa - Sideways at 110mph through Blanchimont 2

arknor said:
im sensing the op doesnt understand the word "sideways"
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Actually I hate using the word 'sideways' and managed to avoid it in the video description etc. but it must have just slipped out on here.

The reason I don't like it is for exactly the same reason as the comments on this here.

Sideways can mean different things. Does it mean the car is SIDEWAYS to the direction the road points, so if you went into a corner, lifted off and the back came around until it's level with the front?

Or is it sideways to the direction of travel, in which case this means that the front wheels are sliding at the same rate as the rears. The car can be pointing IN the direction of travel with NO ANGLE but be said to be travelling .. SIDEWAYS ?

Take this diagram

sideways.jpg


Which is more sideways A or B?

What about C or D?

The video that nicRob posted, impressive though it is in places is mostly oversteer at apex's caused by the driver adding power mid-corner .. why? mainly because he went in too slow.

I can assure you that 'kick out' oversteer at an apex where you have plenty of room to collect it and stay of track is very different than a 'speed/momentum induced' slide towards the exit of a corner where if you don't control it you're off the track ... and in this case at 110mph.

Think back to the opening sequence of Top Gear where you see a car which 'most viewers' would say was 'sideways' on the exit ... is it? it's pointing directly at the camera, so not SIDE WAYS but it is moving from left to right whilst maintaining the same angle so is travelling 'sideways'

LOL, thought i'd just explain that.

IN truth my desription is a bit dramatic and I had really forgotten about it, the driver reminded me and wanted to see it so I used it for one of my Driver Coaches diaries.

This is a big (although not very lengthy) sideways moment I had at Old Paddock at Combe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leiFMtkCSho&feature=player_detailpage#t=26s

And this is the same corner where the car (in my definition) doesn't get sideways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvhCGjCl97o&feature=player_detailpage#t=55s

Maxx
 
arknor said:
sideways to me is when the car is travelling with its side facing the direction the car is actually moving in :P

what the op shows is what the back end stepping out slightly? its not even a power slide!
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Sorry, I didn't mean to refer specifically to my video, as I said, the terms 'sideways' sorta slipped in. The video title '110mph oversteer moment' and the description don't mention it.

It was simply that it does frustrate me sometimes when you see a guy half way round a roundabout and he hits the gas, kicks the back end out and says 'hey, look at me going sideways' (or in FWD lift-off for the same effect).

Your definition is the actually the same as mine but most people equate it to 'angle of oversteer'.

I'll choose my words better next time :)

Maxx
 
Housey said:
I can tell you for a fact he knows a hell of a lot more about driving a car on a race circuit than you my friend, be it sideways or not. I base this on the fact I know Maxx, have used his excellent training skills............and your posts in this thread.
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And thats from Mr 'Brooklands Drift King' himself :)

Maxx
 
Joshy said:
So the OP was the instructor in the clip?

I do have to ask, why did you reach for the steering wheel? Was it something you've been taught to do as an instructor (if so, why? Interfering with a driver in such a situation seems strange, especially when I'm struggling to see what you really could have done at 110MPH with one hand :D) or just panic setting in? ;).
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Yes,

I've lost count of the number of spins I've saved with one hand (seriously), well into double figures and maybe even 3 (lots of opportunity over 20 years). Most drivers are just a bit late reading the slide and so would be late correcting. If they were really quick they might be able to save it but I can generally read it really early and just a little bit of opposite lock saves the day. It's partially that I am in the passenger seat and can feel the back of the car more as dont have to share my senses with the wheel etc. etc.

I also often tell the driver that I will reach over and guide the steering, just to show them the line. The idea is they relax their grip and I just guide them.

One guy in a Caterham mis-understood and as I reached across on the approach to Clearways he took both hands off the wheel ... he also forgot to brake and I ended up holding it in a drift round the outside of Clearways with one hand ... could prob only do in a Caterham though :)

Maxx
 
Good training for this sort of thing is the 'Car Limits' courses run by ex F1 Test Driver Andy Walsh.

One of the exercises involves taking a corner at a speed which will send the car into oversteer (about 80-85mph in an Elise). Just before you turn you take both feet off the pedals, place one finger on the left hand spoke of the steering wheel and turn into the (left hand) corner and as the back steps out you control it with the one finger on the wheel.

It takes (quite) a few go's but pretty much everyone manages to do this in the 1-1.5hrs Andy spends on it with you (across 4 drivers).

Maxx
 
Berger said:
That Elise spins on itself pretty quick!

Guess he just lifts slightly off the throttle as the suspension compresses onto the front through the dip and unweights it causing it to spin like a top?

Being a FWD pansy I have been quite lucky, when I went onto the dirt at Lodge at Oulton I just had it slightly sideways and it pulled straight and at Cadwell when I had cold rear tyres and damp track at Barn I managed to have it sideways and see-sawed a bit at the wheel but didn't get into a big tank slapper, just once each direction.
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In the 2nd video posted earlier at Combe?

Yes, a couple of things caused the initial oversteer but it was the lift that caused the spin.

There is a bump on the apex, quite a substantial one and when you go over that the front get light first then as the back goes over it, it gets light also. Fronts not a problem, just a hint of understeer but the rear being under power caused a momentary loss of traction which gives way to wheelspin as the tyre re-makes contact with the surface. May have got away with it in a N/A car but with the Supercharger charging up it makes this worse as you also get an extra dollop of power.

Neither spin was of any real concern as it happened at the apex of the corner so the car heading down the track and there was a lot of room on the exit.

Maxx
 
Combe is particuarly bumpy, pretty much everywhere. If you look at the right hand side of the video I show the 'vertical acceleration', it's never static.

The Data-logger was centrally mounted so the accelerometers don't really show how much the bumps effect the rear of the car. You can perhaps see the bump/rise better in the external video at the end.

Single or 2-way dampers won't really damp these type of bumps, for that you need 3 way dampers which have a setting for 'fast bump'.

Maxx
 
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