Any Forensic Scientists here?

SexyGreyFox

SexyGreyFox

SexyGreyFox

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I'm working with a really interesting young man who has just got his Masters in Forensic Science.
The shame is he's come to work at the NHS in the Educational block because he's got no experience in the real world.
Now this is the real interesting bit - what he did to get his Masters.
From a fingerprint he can work out the height, weight and sex of a person :eek:
Apparently nobody else had worked on this so he decided to give it a go and with 240 people got within 50mm of their height, 10% of their weight and 100% the right sex.
His Professor wanted him to publish his findings but he doesn't believe he did enough testing.
What is sad is that his work is now on the back boiler where (if found to be accurate) it could be used all around the world.
This has also made me think how many students have done amazing research for their Masters but their work is now forgotten.
 
Have not heard of a connection between fingerprints and other physical characteristics but have not got much into fingerprints much, just plain recognition. Know a tutor at work who is into fingerprints and fingerprint analysis and teaches on the forensics course at uni, will ask him when I see him about this as it sounds an interesting area of research.
 
I'd say the same with a lot of PhDs as well. I'm sure there's a smattering of brilliant thoughts out there, but for any number of reasons have largely been forgotten.

Don't forget too what happens to a large chunk of those people who lose funding etc., their doctorates are postponed indefinetly.
 
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Eh? fingerprints don't change so how can he tell your height and weight?! Sounds like hocus pocus!

Unless it's sopmething to do with the oils or cells left in a print.
 
Wyrdo said:
Eh? fingerprints don't change so how can he tell your height and weight?! Sounds like hocus pocus!

Unless it's sopmething to do with the oils or cells left in a print.
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Of course they do! Your shape and size has all sorts of effects on your fingerprint. An obese person's print will be distorted from the stress on the skin, while a younger person's print will be smaller and finer in appearance. Your fingers grow and adjust to commensurate with your age and lifestyle. This is secondary school stuff.
 
KNiVES said:
Of course they do! Your shape and size has all sorts of effects on your fingerprint. An obese person's print will be distorted from the stress on the skin, while a younger person's print will be smaller and finer in appearance. Your fingers grow and adjust to commensurate with your age and lifestyle. This is secondary school stuff.
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Apparently so, guess I missed that lesson :p Obviously I realise it changes as you grow I was kinda thinking say I lose a few stone, I just don't see it changing enough to be able to tell my weight.
 
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That's incredible if it's true, though I struggle to believe that it's possible to tell that much from fingerprints alone.

My mother in law is a forensic scientist... On the off you find yourself in with her one evening, do not under any circumstances suggest that you watch CSI.
 
My brother in law has a PHD in it, I'll point him in the direction of this thread and ask him what he thinks about this.
 
Von Smallhausen said:
Doesn't Meridian work for the FSS ?
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Never heard of him...



But yes, he does. Fingerprints are done almost exclusively by the police in this country. The FSS and some of the private companies do very specialised lifts, but the police still hold the database and do the comparisons etc. This means I know little about the subject, but I find the original premise VERY hard to believe. My understanding is that fingerprints are all but random, with even identical twins having different prints. I would guess that estimating height might possible on a few very well preserved samples, as size will presumably relate to body size. But that's it.


Do you have any contact with his professor? Or is this hearsay?


M
 
Meridian said:
Do you have any contact with his professor? Or is this hearsay?
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All I know is that he showed his work to my Managers who were impressed and have taken him on for 6 months in an Educational capacity.
Today I asked what he got his Masters in and he explained although a lot of stuff went over my head.
In a nutshell -
The weight of a person also as an effect on your fingerprints (fat etc).
The height of a person also relates to the size of the fingerprint.
The gender side is all to do with ......... (forgot) - basically if there are less than 11 of them in your fingerprint you will be male and if there is more you will be female.
Something along those lines.

I have no reason to disbelieve what he says but he wasn't confident enough with his findings to publish it.
His Professor is in Haiti apparently recognising bodies.
 
If this was true, and i have no reason to doubt it is, he really should continue as im sure police and other agencies would love to be able to do this, could help a lot in prelim crime stuff where there is no match for a fingerprint but you could know height, weight and sex.
 
dmpoole said:
In what context?
That he is making it up or it won't work?
If the first reason then what has he got his Masters in for Forensic Science and why would he make a new subject up it it is in something else?
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i don't think he made it up - but its quite easy for someone to reach incorrect conclusions based on limited statistical data.
lets be fair, this is only a masters so it doesn't give you much time to actually do anything because they are short courses. for many people it is also the first time they do a large project as many undergraduates don't even get to do final year projects. the purpose of a masters is usually to give you a taste of research and give you a little preparation for a PhD (it is sometimes also insisted upon by various institutions as they don't think you are good enough to do a PhD) - so nobody really expects a masters to achieve anything, or discover anything because a year course is simply not enough time to do anything useful.
so, while he may be convinced by his limited research that he is onto something its more likely to be a consequence of the small number of samples, or his sampling technique.
i'm not saying it can't be true and that it isn't worth publishing but i doubt its a real result.
i should also say that if it is true his professor would have written the paper himself, and sent it off to journals with both their names on it - as the supervisor the research is in a large part his, and he would want his name on such a ground breaking piece of research.
 
Where did he get the Masters from? The only one which is worth anything is the one from Strathclyde.


The point of my other question was: do you have this information from anyone apart from him? I'm sure I could spin you a forensic line that would impress you, but you'd have no way of proving it one way or the other, and would struggle to find anyone who could. I'm not saying the guying is lying, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.



M
 
Meridian said:
Where did he get the Masters from? The only one which is worth anything is the one from Strathclyde.


The point of my other question was: do you have this information from anyone apart from him?
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Staffs Uni who have a dedicated Forensic Department.

My Managers saw his work, told me about it and then I quizzed him.
He did say (and I think I said above) that he didn't think 240 people was a wide enough sample for proof.

Good post aardvark - makes sense now
 
i didn't want to sound like an educational snob or that i was dismissing his work - but i've done a PhD myself and have direct contact/involvement with 50 or so other people working on them over the years and we all think we have discovered something amazing at the time :) and its very easy to get carried away, thinking that you have discovered something that will change the world (that would be ego i guess) -unfortunately research doesn't work like that.
the true value of his project is the experience and the skills he has learnt, and he would have been hired on that basis, not some piece of individual research work and is most likely flawed (through no fault of his own). people with keen minds should be encouraged - so don't show him this thread! ;)
 
dmpoole said:
Staffs Uni who have a dedicated Forensic Department.
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Sadly lots of universities have these now. it's not the same as actually being useful.


I'm only a little worried because I really doubt he's the first person to try this, so it's a little odd that his results seem so spectacular. It's pretty rare for MSc projects to do anything ground-breaking, except by accident. The three I've supervised certainly weren't, although were useful for background information.


M
 
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