Anyone Voting in the Catalan Referendum?

Kermit said:
Your missing the point or being pedantic.
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Yes, thus I was asking for clarification... your position is/was unclear

I'm not suggesting its likely now we're in the modern world the principles of boundaries now set definetly should be set in stone less likely adopted,
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but that is what it certainly seems like you were suggesting

but that in many circumstances, its a case of people just wanting something for the sake of it, grass is greener etc. Its very wrong imo for 51-55% (approx and who knows tbh) of the population wanting to change the status quo of Catalonia being a region of Spain for over 300 years while entirely ignoring the wishes of 45%. Just because there's a majority (democracy as you call it), it doesn't make it right those 45% who are brought up Spanish with Catalonian culture (which tbh doesn't differ that much some Spanish culture), would be denied the right to stay Spanish but in the place they were born.
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Why is it very wrong? Surely it is even more wrong for the 51-55% to be a part of Spain if they don't want to be...

I'm sure we could have a referendum in the UK if the government should give every woman & man that earns less than £100,000 a year the option of taxing those that earn over that 30% more with the proceeds going into the banks of those that don't and it would almost certainly pass but that doesn't make it right!
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why on earth bring wealth distribution into this, people who earn over 100k a year already pay more than 30% in tax, they pay more like 60% on the first 20k over 100k... but we have these things called general elections where people will vote for a new government on manifestos which will of course include proposals relating to taxation and benefits.. lets get back to the topic though

is this how your argument goes, pick up a single word "possibly" and carry on asking like you can't work it out?
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why not just be clearer from the outset

Ireland independence was 1922 & I assume possibly the majority (likely 80-90%) in the south wanted independence from the UK, its a whole lot different from Catalonia where its a slim margin who [we think] want it based on party votes yesterday but when it comes down to it, if the facts on the effect to GDP, costs, loss of EU membership, Euro and the beloved Bara FC not being able to play in La Liga was made clear pre-referendum, I suspect a fair few would change their minds at the risk of loosing some of the prosperity they have the edge over most Spanish regions. You are aware to many the crux of it isn't so much wanting independence, its that they feel hard done by in being 16% of the population but producing 19% of the GDP of Spain?
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the reasons for wanting independence aren't really relevant IMO to whether or not people should have the right to self determination

would you have a different view re: Catalonia if a large % were in favour of independence... you previously portrayed some general objection with some reasoning about borders needing to stay the same but now it seems that in the case of Ireland your view is "possible" re: independence because a larger number would support it... so you're not fundamentally opposed to self determination but rather you'd want a particular %
 
Kermit said:
Something to watch and ask yourself, how many people died almost every time borders changed

Also keep an eye on Spain as I don't really see a Catalonian state for longer than a few years and the times it does more or less appear, 100's of years before that, Spain was a whole

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Times change, attitudes change, society changes. You are the one saying that things must absolutely not change, if those things happen to be some kind of national boundary. Just seems like a very arbitrary choice of red-line that you've decided to adopt.

Whether or not there is a peaceful democratic process to change said borders, you think they are now "correct" and for all-time immutable?

I take it you'd be equally opposed if it was a region of Russia or China trying to break away to set up a modern, democratic, pro-western country? Would you say, "NO, you have to stay in China, because that is correct and right for you forever. You are Chinese and you must never have self-determination or stop being a part of China."

I find it intriguing tbh that you've decided this is best.
 
So with hindsight, this was very well played by the Spanish government.

Catalonia will continue to prosper as it always has done.

This populist movement wasn't based on injustice, persecution or even economic turmoil. Just the political aspirations of a small number of people. David Cameron take note.
 
muon said:
No doubt you will tell me in hindsight the government took the wrong actions. However, for now history agrees with me, Spain remains intact.
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I was just asking you what you were referring to, you've bumped the thread... now you seem to have added a couple more lines to your post - any specific reason for the bump today?

Also I don't think this is over exactly - plus the Spanish government you're praising is no longer in power, Rajoy's government was ousted in a vote of no confidence in the Spanish Parliament following corruption allegations - ironically the tipping point was when Basque politicians joined Catalan politicians in voting against Rajoy.

I'm not sure what you want David Cameron to take note of, he resigned of his own free will, he wasn't booted out by parliament.
 
muon said:
Why are you so bothered with a reminder that the Catalan separatists failed?
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I'm not - I was just asking what you were referring to/why the bump? You bumped the thread with a one line post which has since been edited - I was wondering if there was some particular reason? Some news story?
 
It's depressing that savagely beating your own citizens for trying to vote is considered "well played"
 
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