Apple users, do you take a dim view of their litigation 'tactics'?

Robbo

Robbo

Robbo

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Just to pull my recent post out of this thread: http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18278426

US judge denies Samsung's request to stay US ban on Galaxy Nexus

Samsung's request for a stay was a long shot, especially given Judge Koh's unwillingness to grant a similar request by Samsung relating to the injunction on the Galaxy Tab 10.1. After all, such a stay would require the judge to disagree with her own decision from just a few days ago. That's simply not going to happen very often.

"There's a lot to consider for the appeal"

The court's injunction order found that Android's "Quick Search Box" feature infringed Apple's US patent number 8,086,604, which covers feeding predetermined heuristic algorithms to different searchable areas via a single unified search interface. It looks like one of Samsung's main arguments for overturning the injunction on appeal is that the '604 is invalid in view of a patent that predates it — US 6,324,534. However, it seems Samsung failed to argue that the '534 patent invalidated Apple's patent in its opposition to the injunction request. As such, Judge Koh minimized the value of the '534 patent, stating that the court "does not look favorably upon Samsung's endeavor now to re-litigate the merits of the '604 patent's validity based on what is effectively new prior art." Koh goes on to reason that "because the Federal Circuit is unlikely to consider a prior art reference for the first time on appeal, the court is doubtful that Samsung can show a likelihood of success on appeal based on the ['534 patent] reference."

That's all presumably bad news for Samsung, but we'll have to wait and see if the appellate court agrees that Samsung has squandered an opportunity to challenge the validity of Apple's patent. Of course, Samsung will also appeal Judge Koh's finding that the Galaxy Nexus' unified search capabilities infringe Apple's patent in the first place. If it can convince the appellate court that it doesn't infringe, the timing and merits of invalidity arguments would become unimportant.
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http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/3/3136023/samsung-request-stay-galaxy-nexus-injunction-denied-Apple

We've now obtained confirmation from the court's online docketing system that Apple has posted the nearly $96 million bond. Basically, the injunction is now in full effect. Although, we assume the court will still need to go back and examine Google's assertions that the upcoming OTA update of the Galaxy Nexus will be a legitimate workaround to the '604 patent. We're keeping a close eye on things and will provide further updates as we learn more.
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:eek:

Google are looking at a possible patch to escape the problem: http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/3/3136102/google-samsung-software-update-galaxy-nexus-infringement

Google have also removed it from sale: http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/3/31...vailable-to-purchase-from-google-play-website

Is this the most substantial win for Apple so far?
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Some of you may not have seen that thread so I thought I'd ask in here. What are your thoughts about this situation? Do you think Apple are going over the top, or do they have a right to feel aggrieved?

Ultimately I believe it's the fault of the patent system being so poor, but they are going after Google/Samsung very aggressively...
 
This is very normall, people who have an issue with apple over this really have no clue at all how industry work.

But yes patent system is rubbish.
 
Dont blame them one bit.
Some of the cases are a bit sad, others are justified, but ultimately its an issue with the patent system thats been abused since the 90's by everyone (Samsung and Google are not whiter then white when it comes to patent disputes) - Apple are the worlds biggest company at the moment - it sells papers/website hits to mention them (especially negatively - the curse of being at the top) so its not 'news' unless Apple are involved.

Regarding the cases themselves (IOS vs Android) - years ago every phone was clearly different, with vastly different UI/icons. Now? its difficult to argue that Android and IOS are really that different, many icons look almost the same and most the phones also look similar (yes, SGS I'm looking at you! - although the II and III are slowly becoming more and more distinctive and less Apple like). Its a fact that Android was a copy-cat BB OS until IOS launched, combined with it being during a period when a few key Apple staff jumped ship to Google its not hard to see why Apple are angered.
That said - maybe we've just reached a point where tech, ultimately, looks and acts the same - because its the most effective way to do it?
 
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The state of software patenting is generally a bit sad. It's been heading this way for a good ten years.

Apple are not going OTT. They invest a huge amount of resources in product design and software and other companies including Google/Motorola and Samsung a few months later happen to produce something that looks eerily similar and emulates the core functionality. Apple have patented their technology, so it's entirely fair to go after those who violate it to protect their core business.
 
Another problem with the system as I see it, yet no one else seems to, is that with Google having vested interests in their handset makers - is it really fair for said handset makers and Google to trade patents around for peanuts to try and combat legal proceedings? surely this is not how the patent system was intended to work (despite its obvious flaws )?
So company X infringes on a certain patent, Google give them it, now they don't infringe but Google do .. so they go after Google, but then the patent is given back to Google.. and it goes on and on.
 
I'm no patent expert so I won't pretend to be. But yes. I find myself grimacing occasionally at the constant news of litigation regarding some pretty ambiguous sounding software patents.
 
It happens all over the place, all the time, it's only high profile because it's Apple. Doesn't bother me a bit, no matter who does it.
 
It's getting pretty boring to be honest. So is the Apple hate. It's 'just because they are Apple' is the main reason why these particular litigation's are getting so much media coverage. If it was any other company you'd have to look a lot harder to find any information on the matter.

Also, the US patent system is completely broken.
 
PardonTheWait said:
They're no better or worse than any other evil giant company.
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This to be honest. I use to get quite upset about hearing about it all the time.

Yes some cases are silly, but if you look at the patents invovled sometimes it's understandable.

I remember there being like a web diagram of all the companies suing each other and those that have patent infringe cases and or licenses. It's massive and all the big companies are at one another really.

It's just Apple get's news a lot.
 
I find it all embarrassing. All of the big tech companies are as bad as each other.

Apple seems happy to infringe on the IP of others (most famously Apple Records) but then takes the moral high-ground against others.

The patent system is a mess though. Wouldn't it be great if there was a global patent organisation that could properly validate patents on submission, rather than when the case goes to court?
 
Alpherah said:
Dont blame them one bit.
Some of the cases are a bit sad, others are justified, but ultimately its an issue with the patent system thats been abused since the 90's by everyone (Samsung and Google are not whiter then white when it comes to patent disputes) - Apple are the worlds biggest company at the moment - it sells papers/website hits to mention them (especially negatively - the curse of being at the top) so its not 'news' unless Apple are involved.

Regarding the cases themselves (IOS vs Android) - years ago every phone was clearly different, with vastly different UI/icons. Now? its difficult to argue that Android and IOS are really that different, many icons look almost the same and most the phones also look similar (yes, SGS I'm looking at you! - although the II and III are slowly becoming more and more distinctive and less Apple like). Its a fact that Android was a copy-cat BB OS until IOS launched, combined with it being during a period when a few key Apple staff jumped ship to Google its not hard to see why Apple are angered.
That said - maybe we've just reached a point where tech, ultimately, looks and acts the same - because its the most effective way to do it?
Click to expand...

I disagree. Have a look back at around 2005-7, SE, Samsung, Nokia, LG all had very similar UIs to each other. The menu was generally a 9 or 12 array of icons, in fact the Apple UI actually looks like a direct evolution of that (bigger screen, more icons of a similar size).

You did have different phone designs, Candybar and clamshell etc. which we have slowly lost, but current phones do look significantly different to each other (which is not what could be said with the original Galaxy S and the S2).

N19h7m4r3 said:
This to be honest. I use to get quite upset about hearing about it all the time.

Yes some cases are silly, but if you look at the patents invovled sometimes it's understandable.

I remember there being like a web diagram of all the companies suing each other and those that have patent infringe cases and or licenses. It's massive and all the big companies are at one another really.

It's just Apple get's news a lot.
Click to expand...

That diagram was quite interesting, however even though it showed the entire industry sueing each other there was a significant number more attached to Apple than most others.
 
Amp34 said:
That diagram was quite interesting, however even though it showed the entire industry sueing each other there was a significant number more attached to Apple than most others.
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There's a reason for that, apple is very dominate in phone industry with a huge number of the most relevant patents.

Now if they showed Samsung and everyone their going after then it would look very different as they have a much wider range of goods.

I posted in one of the threads which showed who had the most and more importantly the strongest and best phone relevant patents, guess who was at the top.
What was surprising all though other phone makers have huge number of patents they aren't important patents.
 
It's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

Many of the patents which are granted are just plain stupid and should never have been issued in the first place. I don't agree with any company using pedantic patents on the tiniest features to try to block sales of a competitor's products.

That said, I do agree that many manufacturers have slavishly copied Apple's design and functionality. The design of the original Samsung Galaxy was a joke, with both the handset itself closely resembling the iPhone and the layout of the application icons a pretty much direct copy. This shouldn't be allowed and Apple have a reasonable claim against such behaviour. Why should another company be able to copy their software or hardware designs like this rather than developing their own?
 
Glaucus said:
There's a reason for that, apple is very dominate in phone industry with a huge number of the most relevant patents.

Now if they showed Samsung and everyone their going after then it would look very different as they have a much wider range of goods.

I posted in one of the threads which showed who had the most and more importantly the strongest and best phone relevant patents, guess who was at the top.
What was surprising all though other phone makers have huge number of patents they aren't important patents.
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I'm not sure about that... I'd love to see that link to see what are the most "important" patents, considering the likes of Nokia, Samsung etc have been in the phone game for years. I'd assume Apple has a significant number of software/UI patents whereas the others have a significant number of hardware patents. I'd also assume that Apple being still very new and with a collection of mostly software patents doesn't really have the issue of FRAND yet that a lot of the other patents would cover.
 
On the subject of Apple patents

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18709232

HTC is claiming victory in a patent dispute with Apple after a ruling by the High Court in London.

The judge ruled that HTC had not infringed four technologies that Apple had claimed as its own.

He said Apple's slide-to-unlock feature was an "obvious" development in the light of a similar function on an earlier Swedish handset.

Apple has also cited the patent in disputes against firms using Google's Android system software.

Slide-to-unlock
HTC launched the London-based lawsuits a year ago as part of an effort to invalidate European patents Apple had referred to in a German court case. Apple subsequently countersued.

The four patents at stake were:

Unlocking a device by performing a gesture on an image.
The use of a multilingual keyboard offering different alphabets on portable devices, including mobile phones.
A system to determine which elements of a screen were activated by single-finger touches; which were activated multi-finger touches and which ignored touches altogether.
Letting a user drag an image beyond its limits and then showing it bounce back into place to illustrate that they had reached its furthest edge.

Apple had claimed HTC's Arc unlock mechanism infringed its technology
The judge ruled that the first three patents were invalid in this case, while the fourth did not apply to HTC's devices.
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Three patents invalidated.

Apple declined to comment on the specifics of the case.

Instead it re-issued an earlier statement, saying: "We think competition is healthy, but competitors should create their own original technology, not steal ours."
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Hmmm...

The judge said that HTC's "arc unlock" feature - which also involves a predefined gesture along a path shown on-screen - would have infringed Apple's technology had it not been for a device released in 2004.

The Neonode N1 showed a padlock on its screen with the words "right sweep to unlock" when it was in its protected mode. A later version replaced the text with an arrow.

The judge said it would have been an "obvious" improvement for the developers to have offered users visual feedback in the form of a "slider" in the way that Apple later used.

He added that the concept of a "slider" was not new since it had already appeared in Microsoft's CE system.

As a result Apple's claim to the innovation was rejected.
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Little ironic there?
 
Amp34 said:
I'm not sure about that... I'd love to see that link to see what are the most "important" patents, considering the likes of Nokia, Samsung etc have been in the phone game for years. I'd assume Apple has a significant number of software/UI patents whereas the others have a significant number of hardware patents. I'd also assume that Apple being still very new and with a collection of mostly software patents doesn't really have the issue of FRAND yet that a lot of the other patents would cover.
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They might off been in the game for years, but smartphones are fairly new. It's those patents that are important. I'm pretty sure it's in the mobile section somewhere.

Here it is,
http://www.ambercite.com/downloads/The Smartphone Patent Wars whitepaper_March 2011.pdf

Apple no:1 MS no:2
Apple despite having far less patents, owns 16 out of the top 20 smartphone patents.

Samsung is a mere 60th in smartphone patents.
 
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