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Are Nvidia and AMD price fixing again?

Discussion in 'Graphics Cards' started by StriderX, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 15,646

    Now they've already been caught out for this before, but nothing really seems to stop companies doing it again (DRAM manufacturers). What with Nvidia's huge price hike on their cards for mostly pointless features that barely use the cores in question (yet), AMD releasing a similarly high priced card probably because the bar was set high enough for the VII to be sorta viable and the pointless confusion with the 2060 SKU's is maybe involved.

    It just seems sketchy to me, but i'm not into the business side of this enough to make anything other than a poorly educated assumption on it.

    I mean obviously Inflation is a thing and Nvidia pooped the bed with Crypto, so maybe it's nothing.
     
  2. hominid

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 22, 2002

    Posts: 1,621

    Location: South UK

    Best way to lower prices is to not buy when prices get too high.

    NVidia push the boat out further and further each time, low end to them is now ~£350 for the 2060 - got to keep those investors happy..
     
  3. Tom B

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 20, 2007

    Posts: 658

    Possibly. But I think the real reason is that when the mining craze hit, nvidia had a significant amount of data on what people were willing to pay and that set a precedent which they used for the 20 series. In a way it softened the blow because when they were announced we'd already had a years worth of heavily inflated prices.

    I'm fondly remembering paying £300 for an 8800GTX and £350 for a Radeon 5870, the top tier cards of their time. Yes we should expect some inflation but those days are long gone :(
     
  4. billysielu

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 9, 2009

    Posts: 10,273

    Location: Oxfordshire

    Possibly. Vote with your wallet.
     
  5. TNA

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 13, 2008

    Posts: 10,001

    Location: London

    Yep. The more you buy, the more you save :p
     
  6. RevBillyG

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 1,356

    Location: Neths

    So much this :(
    While numptys are willing to part with too much cash for the latest tech it'll carry on.
     
  7. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 28,995

    Nvidia's prices have been pretty consistent until Turing came along. Turing is definitely more expensive to produce with GDDR6 and large dies, but that can only explain a small part of the price increase.

    I think one factor no one really considers is the R&D costs increasing, and the manufacturing costs increasing a lot as well. 7nm is supposedly at least twice as expensive for the same sized die comapred to 14nm according to AMD. Worse still the development costs for a the new nodes are doubling each time. https://www.extremetech.com/computing/272096-3nm-process-node

    With GPUs it is worse since the R&D costs for ever more complex GPUs is also increasing, more than doubling every generation. Nvidia is increasing R&D budget faster than most other similar tech companies. I believe nvidia spent $5bn developing Volta.

    https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from...-big-spender-for-semiconductor-rd-thats-intel
    Look how R&D just goes up and up and up:
    https://ycharts.com/companies/NVDA/r_and_d_expense


    Nvidia operating margin increased but at a much lower rate. Margins are about 35%, which about right for a very healthy company and is why their share price when sky high and recently got corrected.


    Their margins on Turing are almst certainly higher than most previous generations but i doubt overall there is an astronomical margin to be made.
     
  8. muppet

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Dec 4, 2002

    Posts: 1,098

    Location: ilkeston derbys

    I was waiting hopefully for amd to bring them down with a bump this summer/autumn . doesn't look like it but you never know
     
  9. Gerard

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,734

    Location: Ireland


    When did you buy the gtx? On launch they were around £400-£500+ depending on the brand.
     
  10. opethdisciple

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 18, 2010

    Posts: 17,404

    Location: London

    AMD had such an opportunity here. Obviously they have their reasons for sticking with HBM2 but lets say they had gone with GDDR6 this would allow them to manufacture at a cheaper price and they could of really under cut Nvidia and made a killing.

    Feels like a missed opportunity.

    They know how to do it to Intel but seemly pass up the opportunity to do it to Nvidia.

    Mistake.
     
  11. Gerard

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,734

    Location: Ireland


    They couldn't have went with gddr 6 without modifying the core\memory controller and making a ton of changes to the pcb. That would be more time and money spent to make the card a bit cheaper.
     
  12. StarShock

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 6, 2005

    Posts: 1,221

    my theory on the radeon VII is, I don't think AMD are making much money on the VII, the 16gb of HBM2 is likely eating all the profit. It looks like they are reclaimed instinct chips which is why they only have 60 CUs, and they just looked at the 2080 and thought hey, these are as good as those and if we sell the same price we can make our money back.
     
  13. opethdisciple

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 18, 2010

    Posts: 17,404

    Location: London

    But this was the story with Vega. How much time do they need. They've had time to get the product right already.

    Time isn't the reason. It's actually a design choice.
     
  14. Tom B

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 20, 2007

    Posts: 658

    Just found my email:

    Code:
    You have ordered the following items:
    Item: BFG 8800GTX OC2 768MB GDDR3 Dual DVI HDTV Out HDCP enabled PCI-E Graphics Card
    Qty: 1Cost: 301.91
    
    Sorry it was from a competitor :p Though looking at it again, it was September 2007 and without VAT, so ~£350 with VAT 10 months after launch but it was one of the more expensive models I seem to recall.

    Though my memory was correct about the 5870, I pre-ordered it in November 2009:

    Code:
    Item Qty Price
    XFX ATI Radeon HD 5870 1024MB GDDR5 PCI-Express Graphics Card 1 £295.64
      Sub Total: £295.64
    DPD Next Day Parcel Shipping: £9.00
      Total Vat: £45.7
      Total inc Vat: £350.34
    
     
  15. Gerard

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 29,734

    Location: Ireland

    As far as they're concerned the product is right for the price point they want to sell it at, if these are indeed instinct chips that didn't make the cut then it makes more sense to sell the gpu as it is instead of spending more resources on changing components out to fit different memory to the card.
     
  16. TheRealDeal

    Sgarrista

    Joined: May 28, 2007

    Posts: 8,969

    It is a design choice and they are designed for compute which is why they used HBM. These cards are just failed MI50's hence why they have HBM. Most people were not even expecting another Vega card but it looks like AMD have taken the chance to use failed MI50's and make some money on them. Like Vega 64 they should do a decent job in the gaming world. It makes sense though as why waste the chips when you can earn some money with them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  17. Davedree

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 27, 2010

    Posts: 2,781

    Yes, ever since Amd became weak around Fiji/Tonga and thus nvidia marketed laptop chips as high end, of which they share with the desktop.
    Effectively this enabled them to create a higher tier (ultra high end/halo) which commands more money and peeps are happy to pay.
     
  18. bigmike20vt

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 23, 2006

    Posts: 1,059

    I dunno... it is what it is and that is fine, i aint gonna moan about the price of RTX or Radeon 7. what winds me up however is the double standards... Not aimed at an individual and it is not really just aimed at this forum, but I am seeing a hell of a lot more defending AMD with their card pricing, which at the moment at least looks to be on a par with the RTX 2080 price wise and on a par with it performance wise as well, but without RTX or DLSS.

    so, everything else aside IF Nvidia are taking the wet yellow stuff on the pricing of the RTX 2080, then what does that say about AMD, given that turing took a truck load of development costs, where as Radeon 7 is just a salvaged failed part which would have otherwise been destined for the bin.

    IF NV are arseholes with their pricing then surely AMD are just as bad, ?
     
  19. LambChop

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 4, 2011

    Posts: 3,267

    That's really the only, way, dont buy it, but not everyone would do it enough to make any difference. People have the power of the world in their hands but will never use it.

    Petrol prices too high ? Dont fill up your car, can you imagine the price it would come down to if no-one filled ?
    GPU's too expensive, dont buy.
    Train travel too expensive - dont travel on trains.
    And on and on and on.

    It would only take a matter of days and you would see immediate changes.
     
  20. LoadsaMoney

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 8, 2003

    Posts: 26,415

    Location: In a house

    No, we are.

    We are.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019