Atheists unite

Tonester0011 said:
I've always associated creationism with crazy yanks. Also love the ones who claim their religion is the correct one, condemning 6billion people to a hell they don't believe in :p
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I think one thing people need to clarify, is what they mean by creationism. I would describe myself as a creationist however that doesn't preclude me accepting all scientific discoveries concerning the creation of Earth and the Universe.

Even within the field of theoretical physics there is little I have trouble with. (In fact off the top of my head I am struggling to come up with anything)

As a creationist, I simply believe that the ultimate creator of everything is God. If the Big Bang* theory is correct then it was simply a mechanism used by God.

What I am not is a "Young Earth Creationist". I don't believe the Earth is 5000 years old. I don't believe man lived alongside dinosaurs or any of the other stuff which we have overwhelming evidence to think otherwise. It is very rare to find people in the world who actually hold to this sort of position. Most of them are in America.


*Big Bang theory was first proposed by a Catholic Priest
 
spudbynight said:
I think one thing people need to clarify, is what they mean by creationism. I would describe myself as a creationist however that doesn't preclude me accepting all scientific discoveries concerning the creation of Earth and the Universe.

Even within the field of theoretical physics there is little I have trouble with. (In fact off the top of my head I am struggling to come up with anything)

As a creationist, I simply believe that the ultimate creator of everything is God. If the Big Bang* theory is correct then it was simply a mechanism used by God.

What I am not is a "Young Earth Creationist". I don't believe the Earth is 5000 years old. I don't believe man lived alongside dinosaurs or any of the other stuff which we have overwhelming evidence to think otherwise. It is very rare to find people in the world who actually hold to this sort of position. Most of them are in America.


*Big Bang theory was first proposed by a Catholic Priest
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Essentially you are an 'evolutionary creationist'.

Creationism in common use tends to be ascribed to US fundamentalists Christians (who reject the age of the earth & evolution by natural selection).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution
 
spudbynight said:
Fluff
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Why do you feel the need to believe such things? And why should anyone care?

*Big Bang theory was first proposed by a Catholic Priest
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So what?

Back to the OP, and to be fair to him, Aron Ra lives in the bible belt, so things tend to make you a little bit crazy. When dealing with the Ken Hams, Ray Comforts and the Kirk Camerons of this world, there's gonna be some push-back required.

Promoting atheism is a misguided errand anyway. Atheism isn't an end goal. Critical thinking, skepticism, promoting Science, secularism, ect...
 
B&W said:
But the big bang had to exist before the universe did? :confused:
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The Big Bang was the moment the universe came into existence. Thus before this nothing (given current theories) existed.

aardvark said:
elements didn't start to form for many millions of years - it was too hot.
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Wrong. The lighter elements formed almost instantly. Heavier ones can later once things had cooled down a bit...

Tefal said:
You're ironically being like the person who goes to church and is told by a pastor one possible interpretation of a scripture and how it may be viewed and who then goes on to espouse that as fact and the only interpretation to everyone else.
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Not really. I know that scientists are trying to figure out if anything existed pre-Big Bang but given the laws we use to measure things didn't exist before then it's kind if hard.

I'm open minded enough that if solid evidence comes along I'll change my tune. For now I'm going with expected dogma that before point zero nothing existed.
 
spudbynight said:
What I am not is a "Young Earth Creationist". I don't believe the Earth is 5000 years old. I don't believe man lived alongside dinosaurs or any of the other stuff which we have overwhelming evidence to think otherwise. It is very rare to find people in the world who actually hold to this sort of position. Most of them are in America.


*Big Bang theory was first proposed by a Catholic Priest
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So pick and choose a few bits that suit.

It should either be ALL right or ALL wrong. Can you not see that if bits of the bible are wrong then the rest of it loses pretty all credibility?
 
Castiel said:
Theism is simply the belief in a God....like Atheism it is just a philosophical abstract, but the ideologies based on it can be violent or non violent depending upon the manifestation and use to which it is applied by the individual or group.

In the same way, obviously Atheism as a whole doesn't promote militancy, but then many atheist based political movements do, such as Stalinism, Maoism etc....case in point...you stated that there are no Atheists who were militant in the name of Atheism...you are fundamental incorrect, even if you cannot admit it to yourself.
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This has made me finally understand your point. Agreed.

Castiel said:
The problem is that Marxist-Leninism has a fundamentally Militant Atheist basis as it demands the promotion of Atheism and the opposition to and the suppression of all forms of theism and their related religions. It creates, like some religious political movements the very ideals to which the agenda is supported. A Militant Atheist is not representative of atheists everywhere, but then neither is a Militant Islamist representative of Muslims (or even Islamists for that matter) everywhere either.
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Again, agree with all of it apart from that last part. A militant atheist is not representative of all atheists; they will not take how to act from the same page (literally). The same is true with a militant Islamist, but they will take their actions from the same book; the militant is just taking it to the letter, unlike a "moderate" Muslim who will not follow large swathes.

If you compare atheism to theism as a whole, then yes, neither has any ideals other than belief/disbelief in a god. Then can communism really be considered a manifestation of atheism? It seems extreme to suggest the whole communist system at that time was based on atheism.

And would just like to make clear I'm no no means an apologist; I've already stated his actions were horrific. I'm just questioning the motivations.
 
spudbynight said:
Even within the field of theoretical physics there is little I have trouble with. (In fact off the top of my head I am struggling to come up with anything)
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Ok, I have just stumbled upon this thread and read the statement above. Are you actually trying to say that you understand most/all of theoretical physics? Care to come up with a consistent quantum theory of mavity?

Of course, if this is truly what you are trying to say, you are wrong. I don't know any theoretical physicists who believe in creationism.
 
PhysicsMan94 said:
Ok, I have just stumbled upon this thread and read the statement above. Are you actually trying to say that you understand most/all of theoretical physics? Care to come up with a consistent quantum theory of mavity?

Of course, if this is truly what you are trying to say, you are wrong. I don't know any theoretical physicists who believe in creationism.
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I'd hazard a guess that spudbynight is saying that for him theoretical physics is not irreconcilable with his religious beliefs. I don't imagine he's stating that he understands everything in the field of theoretical physics but more simply that as a field it can be accommodated within his beliefs without direct conflict that he can think of.
 
tbyeah said:
IIRC, the meme used Islam as an example? Which is what I'm talking about. Not theism as a whole.

Which atheist ideal dictates that Stalin should act as he did?

The question is easily answered with Islam.
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Remember you're talking to castiel, mr fence sitting defender of all religions worldwide ;)
 
spudbynight said:
Well you cared enough to respond
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Keep dodging.

I am using it to support my assertion that faith and science are compatible.
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That would be your cognitive dissonance talking. They are fundamentally incompatible, but can be made to work, if you put either on hold.

So yeah, you can make it work, some do, and despite all that 'faith' baggage, produce great scientific work (hell, pretty much every scientist before the 20th century had God on their brain, in one form or another).

So frankly I don't really care, I like to think I can tell the difference. I wish more people would be able to as well.
 
tbyeah said:
Again, agree with all of it apart from that last part. A militant atheist is not representative of all atheists; they will not take how to act from the same page (literally). The same is true with a militant Islamist, but they will take their actions from the same book; the militant is just taking it to the letter, unlike a "moderate" Muslim who will not follow large swathes.

If you compare atheism to theism as a whole, then yes, neither has any ideals other than belief/disbelief in a god. Then can communism really be considered a manifestation of atheism? It seems extreme to suggest the whole communist system at that time was based on atheism.
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Think of Marxist-Leninism as a religion underpinned by fundamental atheism, it is essentially the same as Islamism which is a political ideology underpinned by fundamental theism. The whole communist system wasn't based solely on atheism, atheism was a fundamental bedrock for it and the various versions of Communism such as Stalinism, Trotskyism and Leninism interpreted Marxism and it's associated Atheist ideology in different ways, much the same way that Islamism isn't based solely on Islam and its associated Theism. I quoted Trotsky earlier and what he said about atheism being inherent in his belief system. And this is the point you are missing, the reason The Bolsheviks created groups such as the League of the Godless and persecuted and suppressed Religions and Theists is because of the Atheism which was a central tenet of their particular belief system, that the belief system was Political (it could not be religious as it was not spiritual) is immaterial, especially as Islamism is also Political.

They sponsored an atheist movement which suppressed religion violently as an act of open state policy. This doesn't mean that Communism was solely based on Atheism or that Atheism is to blame directly for the actions of the individuals...what it does mean is that State Atheism was the basis for their actions of violence, persecution, censorship and so on. In this way it is the same as Islamists using their religion as the basis for actions of violence, suppression, persecutions and so on....therefore we have both Militant Atheists and Militant Theists....it isn't the underlying beliefs that are the reason for the militancy, but they are the justification for it. However wrong-headed that may be.
 
tbyeah said:
With Islamism, it is the reason though, not just the justification.
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No, Islamism uses it as a justification for a political and imperial foreign policy. What people actually believe is often immaterial as it is the recreation of an Islamic Caliphate that Islamists are generally after where they hold political and ideological power...ISIS is a good example. This mirrors pretty much the Bolsheviks raison d'etre with their own State, which again they were looking to create a communist state where they held the political and ideological power. Effectively it is about Authoritarianism.
 
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Castiel said:
No, Islamism uses it as a justification for a political and imperial foreign policy. What people actually believe is often immaterial as it is the recreation of an Islamic Caliphate that Islamists are generally after where they hold political and ideological power...ISIS is a good example. This mirrors pretty much the Bolsheviks raison d'etre with their own State, which again they were looking to create a communist state where they held the political and ideological power. Effectively it is about Authoritarianism.
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Most would say they are following the Koran. And is comparing the Koran to the Communist Manifesto a fair comparison?
 
the odd thing here is that this thread is allowed, if we started discussing any other "religion" I'm sure it'd be closed?
 
tbyeah said:
Most would say they are following the Koran. And is comparing the Koran to the Communist Manifesto a fair comparison?
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In fact they are following Hadith, the Qur'an by itself doesn't really support Militancy in the forms manifested by Islamism. Also the Communist Manifesto is only one small part of the overall Marxist-Leninist "scripture", but yes as I pointed out earlier the promotion of Atheism and the suppression of theism is a fundamental tenet of Communism. As regards the comparison of Communism and Islamism, it is pretty fair as both Communism and Islamism are authoritarian in their politics and dogmatic in their manifestation.

In any case we have established that there is such a thing as Militant Atheism, and shown how it can manifest in political ideology....which was the point after all, an in-depth discourse on the origins, teachings and comparisons of various socio-political and religio-political movements which advocate authoritarian militancy is something probably best left for another time.
 
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