AV receiver advise

Robzere31

Robzere31

Robzere31

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I currently have a Yamaha RX-V359 AV receiver which has my sky+HD box, Sony blu ray player & Sony TV connected to it. There is also a chromecast plugged into the TV.
Amp was given to me last year for free, & sky & blu ray are connected to TV via hdmi cables then a optical cable from TV out runs to the AV.

Whilst sound is quality is OK, there seems a distinct lack of power from it requiring me to really crack the volume up to get anything from it.
I'm running a pair of diamond 9 speakers for fronts along with a Yamaha YSTFSW050 subwoofer. I also have a small no name centre speaker connected.

I've also picked up a second pair of diamond 9 speakers to run as rears at some point.
I've bought some fiscal 2.5mm cable as I currently have some cheap 1mm cable that was about 5p per mile! :D

My question, do you think it's worth me investing in a better amp?
I've been offered a denon AVRX2000 receiver for £175. Do you think it's worth it?

I'm not looking for amazing sound but would like to get the best out of what I have.
 
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I have the avrx2000 in a 3.1 setup (q acoustic 2000i series)

I have to crank my avr up a fair bit, but when I set my speakers up with the audyssey setup it put all the speakers into the high -db, most likely due to my room being small. (I have manually adjusted the speakers putting them into lower -db and they kick a punch when volume turned up.
So I can only imaging if I manually put the speakers into +db it would be very loud.

If that denon avrx2000 is used I would try to get it lower than £175 , maybe £140.
 
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I can't answer for whether you'll think it's value for money, but in terms of power then the short answer is 'Yes'.

The Yamaha is a decent budget amp, especially when you pay £0's for it :D , but it does have its limits. Some of those limits are imposed by the speakers, so although changing the amp will have some positive benefits it won't cure everything: Speakers and cable are factors too.

The Yam is rated at 100W in 6 Ohms @ 1kHz 0.9% THD. The Denon is 125W in 6 Ohms @ 1kHz 0.7% THD. The two measurement standards are close enough to be comparable, so on paper the Denon is more powerful. Also from experience I find Denons do deliver more real world power. Your Diamond 9 speakers have a maximum power input of 75W @ 6 Ohm (RMS) and have a sensitivity of 86dB.

If we ignore the fact that AV amp volume dials are logarithmic and pretend they're linear for a moment, then the Yam would be at 75% to make 75W compared to the Denon at 60%, so the Denon won't need to be driven as hard to max out the speakers.

Once you have enough power, then how loud your system will go and how dynamic the sound is ultimately governed by how much of the power gets to the speakers which is dictated by amp/speaker impedance matching and the ability of the cables to transfer that power. Then it's about what the speaker does with that power which is to do with speaker impedance and sensitivity (dB/W/m or just dB).

We talk about "driving" speakers, but that's not entirely accurate. Speakers suck current from an amp. How much current they suck depends on the voltage applied across the speaker terminals. It's the amp's job to supply the current, but the amp doesn't have an unlimited supply. The less efficient the speakers then the more current they suck. Budget speakers are less efficient than higher quality speakers. The Diamonds are typical of budget speakers; they're 86dB. Your unnamed centre speaker could be even lower.

To give you some idea of how significant the efficiency of a speaker is then consider that 100W in to a single 86dB speaker will produce roughly 99dB at 10ft. Raise the efficiency just 2dB (88dB) and you now need only 63W for the same loudness. Raise the efficiency to 90dB and you need just 40W to make the system sound as loud as it was with 100W in to 86dB! Better speakers are more efficient, and that then means lower demands on the amp. This brings us on to current.

100W in to a 6 Ohm 86dB speaker through your Fisual 2.5mm means roughly 4.6 Amps of current flow. That's a lot. 40W in to a 6 Ohm 90dB speaker means roughly 2.9 Amps. That's much less draw on the amplifier. Change the speaker to 8 Ohm 90dB and the current drawn drops again to 2.2A

It's slightly odd to think of a higher impedance speaker being an easier load on the the amp when you'd expect the reverse, but it's all to do with the current being drawn. Ohm's Law gives us V = I x R. If we treat the speaker as having a fixed resistance (R) for a moment, then as the amp generates a voltage (V) then the current (I) is given by I = V/R So at 12V and 6 Ohms the current being drawn is 2 Amps (12/6 = 2). Change to an 8 Ohm speaker and we get 12/8 = 1.5 Amps.

So changing to the Denon will make your system a bit louder because that amp can deliver a little more current, but your next upgrade should focus on the speakers because these have a far bigger affect on loudness and dynamics.
 
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Thanks for the really detailed reply. Given me something to think about.

Out of interest, what speakers would you recommend to use if I kept the yamaha amp?
They would need to be a similar size to the diamond 9s if possible.
 
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Firstly, I would consider the amp change to the Denon, but for other reasons than just power. Quite a few TVs mangle the sound going through them by not passing the digital audio signal 'as is' and either blocking or down-converting it. Connecting your HDMI sources to an amp such as the Denon gets around this.

Speakers-wise, you're looking for something 8 Ohm if possible and more efficient. However, you've got to enjoy how they sound first and foremost. They also have to fit your budget too. The Tannoy Revolution DC4 tick the boxes for performance.
 
Just a quick thank you for the advice, ended up purchasing a pair of Tannoy DC4 speakers & a matching Tannoy centre speaker.
Also bagged an unboxed/ex demo yamaha RXV775 amp. Just finished hooking it all up, & the improvement in quality is unbelievable!

I'm going to use my diamond 9s as rear speakers once I've picked up some more cable as I haven't quite got enough to reach where I want to place them.

Class me one happy bunny!
 
Thanks for the update. It's good to hear when there's a positive outcome.

Just out of interest, did you demo any other speakers besides the DC4s?
 
Had a listen to the next model up (DC6) which were on offer for £200, but I couldn't really tell any difference in sound, so settled on the DC4s for £145.

Listened to the Denon AV amp, which has was available for £175 an an ex demo, sounded good, but then the guy mentioned they had 1 yamaha RXV775 as an ex demo (also has a small scratch on the side of it, for £225
Had a quick listen, & thought it was worth the extra.

Including the centre speaker the whole package came in at just over £440 which I'm happy with.
Slightly more than I was planning to spend, but worth it.
 
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Robzere31 said:
Whilst sound is quality is OK, there seems a distinct lack of power from it requiring me to really crack the volume up to get anything from it.
Click to expand...
I have the same kind of problem with my new AV amp...:(

This is a strange one for me as my system sounded fine till I upgraded my Pioneer VSX-920 AV amp with the newer version pioneer VSX-924
Now my system just seems to have no guts and sounds weak...

Average daily Volume used before with the VSX-920 was normally around -30
Now with my VSX-924 I have to crank the volume to -15 to get roughly the same sound level and it sounds weaker..:confused::(


(Speaker setup is a set of Kef 5005.2 in 5.1 )
 
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chaparral said:
I have the same kind of problem with my new AV amp...:(

This is a strange one for me as my system sounded fine till I upgraded my Pioneer VSX-920 AV amp with the newer version pioneer VSX-924
Now my system just seems to have no guts and sounds weak...

Average daily Volume used before with the VSX-920 was normally around -30
Now with my VSX-924 I have to crank the volume to -15 to get roughly the same sound level and it sounds weaker..:confused::(


(Speaker setup is a set of Kef 5005.2 in 5.1 )
Click to expand...

Pioneer Direct Energy amplifier.

It's my belief that the switch to digital amps is generally* bad news for audio fidelity. Older AV amps use a fairly large transformer coupled with some hefty capacitors to provide a reservoir of power. It gets called on when the speakers need a little extra oompf.

Pioneer and others are now changing over to different ways of providing speaker current. The switch mode power supply (SMPS) and the class D amp are more efficient. Far less energy is lost as heat. But in general they run out of steam far too early compared to a conventional analogue amp.

Those all-in-one slim home cinema kits with the built-in DVD/Blu-ray player that Currys and Argos sells have been using SMPS and class D for more than a decade. They're a cheap way and compact solution to fit 6 or 8 channels of amplification in to a space barely an inch high without serious overheating problems. Most of us know how well (or poorly) these things work in practise though.

The brings me to the asterisk next to "generally" in one of the paragraphs above. Done correctly, class D amps and the class T derivatives can be incredibly good. Anyone who has listened to Bel Canto or Audio Research using these switching amps will know what I mean. Similarly, SMPS' can be used very effectively in high-end audio (David Berning ZH-230 power amp). The rub is the cost to do it "right".

Pioneer uses Class D in its premium range SC-LX amps. Last year I upgraded a customer from a Denon 4306 receiver to an SC-LX56 and then SC-LX58. Despite the paper specs being similar there was significantly less headroom and power reserve with the newer digital amps. This was in to pretty efficient B&W speakers. The KEF's you have are 86dB/W and 8 Ohm, so they'll take a bit of driving to get them moving. That's why you can hear the difference.

Another tip is to check out the speaker dB settings after you've run the set-up wizard. If you were doing this manually then the front left is the refence against which the levels are measured. FL is 0dB. The rest of the speakers are higher or lower as required. If you run the wizard and find they're all at a minus dB figure then that will affect the relative level at the volume dial too.
 
Unfortunately customers keep demanding better VFM and lowers costs, so manufactures find ways to shave a few more pence off the manufacturing cost while on paper trying to appear the same or better.... Ultimately it's the customer who gets duped.... Newer is not always better.... Unless you ask the marketing department !!!! :o
 
9designs2 said:
Unfortunately customers keep demanding better VFM and lowers costs, so manufactures find ways to shave a few more pence off the manufacturing cost while on paper trying to appear the same or better.... Ultimately it's the customer who gets duped.... Newer is not always better.... Unless you ask the marketing department !!!! :o
Click to expand...
I have to agree with most of that.... except the first bit; and that's more of a qualification than an outright rejection.

The people most responsible for driving down costs IMO are the manufacturers themselves. By that I mean that they set themselves pricing targets, often in a bid to gain some market share. It then sets a precedent that shackles them. The customers are just along for the ride. Unless it can be effectively demonstrated why cheaper isn't always better then they'll do what humans do. The magazines are complicit too. After all, who wants to read "You should have bought last year's model"?; so they tow the line in finding something good to write about even if it's just all about the colour of the Emperor's new clothes.

Don't get me wrong; I applaud the strides made to reduce manufacturing costs and make entry-level gear more affordable than ever. That's a good thing because it gives far greater numbers of people the opportunity to get a foot on the bottom rung of the ladder. But at the same time, the idea of settling for the cheapest because it's an easy sell rather than doing the harder thing and showing a customer what they get extra in performance for stepping up is, IMO, a huge cop-out.

If I had my way then internet only resellers would get nothing except the base models and last years old stock. Everything else would be funnelled through a dealer network trained to give proper demonstrations and decent after-sales support. This isn't about making dealers rich; it's about serving customers properly.
 
lucid said:
If I had my way then internet only resellers would get nothing except the base models and last years old stock. Everything else would be funnelled through a dealer network trained to give proper demonstrations and decent after-sales support. This isn't about making dealers rich; it's about serving customers properly.
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The problem with that is there loads of dealers that know just about nothing about half the stuff they sell..

Which gets 100 times worst when your left to deal with the young part time staff.
 
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chaparral said:
The problem with that is there loads of dealers that know just about nothing about half the stuff they sell..

Which gets 100 times worst when your left to deal with the young part time staff.
Click to expand...
Which is why training is crucial. (See previous post where I wrote that as part of the text).

Sales as a profession is vastly undervalued. At the moment it's mostly jobs for amateurs: Kids still living with their parents, peeing their wages up the wall on a Friday and Saturday night; a stop-gap job on the route to 'better' things. It doesn't have to be this way, but in Britain's high streets we've never really valued good service.

Although the high-end Hi-Fi industry is on its arse (for different reasons), it got something very right back in the 70's/80's and early 90's. It was the idea that brands and manufacturers should work closely with dealers to train staff and ensure that they had the right skills to understand customer needs and put together effective and appropriate solutions through a process of demonstrations. That only works though if the product being sold isn't also available on the web at massive discounts.

I know what many will cry.... "That's anti-competitive" to which I'd answer it's only keeping the product out of the hands of resellers who have no brand loyalty.

In the boom days of Hi-Fi there was almost nowhere in the UK where you couldn't buy a Dual turntable, Rotel amp and Mission speakers... pretty much the bread & butter entry-level Hi-Fi system. Once customers realised it was pointless trying to play the pricing game they all relaxed. It then became a question of dealers competing on quality and service. For the most part, customers actually got good advice, installs included in the price and decent ongoing support too.

There's absolutely no reason why the Saturday lad couldn't be as knowledgeable as the more senior staff. Age shouldn't make a difference.
 
Would agree with that, and old enough to remember those times ;) .... Even then there was those that moan the manufactures had to much control.... But as a customer I feel I benifited.
I'm not so sure the Hi-end is on its arse my two local Linn dealers have just had some of their best years. One is rushed off his feet, out of 12 demo slots in a week he is having 10 taken. With a 100% conversion rate.
It's the middle ground, where the best vfm is that seems to have died. People want cheap (online) or have money and will spend what ever they like....
Which sadly has seen the British industry go further out of reach of more potential customers as it moved up market.
Very much haves and haves nots economy at present.... Either on your arse or never had it so good.
 
To some folk reading, anything over £500 per item is Hi-end lol. But you're right; real Hi-end is still buoyant. The wealthy have money to spend.
 
Yamaha RX467 & Jamo HCS 5 and I love this combo, been using it for about 4 yeras and no faults.

Don't need to crank anything, though the sub could do with upgrading to the newer model. Its still more than enough for my flat!
 
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