Bethesda....Bethesda never changes!!

No different from all the other major engines like Unreal which is based on a 20 year old engine. As long as the engine gets parts updated each gen it doesn't matter how old the original is. A good example is the Eve Online Engine. Look how that has changed over 15 years in the same game. Or the Frostbite engine that is over 10 years old.

It is normal for developers to keep using the same engine and to keep updating that engine. It makes no sense for Bethesda to drop the Creation Engine as that's what the Bethesda devs will be experts in. Its not like they are using the same Creation engine from 7+ years ago. Todays Creation engine has some major updates and rewrites.


I don't think you realise how bad the engine is and how little Bethesda cares,and if anyone has played their games you would see why its a huge problem. Bethesda have just put one band aid over another. Even for Fallout 76 they found code from Morrowind,which is based on an engine from 1997. Skyrim had X87 instructions at its launch,which meant inefficient performance on modern CPUs(AMD and Intel said to use SSE),and the community had to step and develop Skyboost so it could use SSE and eventually they "fixed it".

It also looks cack for the amount of hardware it uses. Even in Fallout 76 physics and framerates are linked. Go much above 70FPS and animatons start to get wonky. This is a limitation of the original Gamebryo engine in 1997.

Also in Fallout 76,even one a few mbs of updates,means 10s of GBs of data downloads,etc.

It heavily is single thread bound to stupidity,and Bethesda support its poor - it literally got no patches for newer CPUs like Ryzen or Skylake X for example,with their last major game,ie,Fallout 4 although they spent more effort introducing paid mods into the game last year which meant frequent game patches! Even for Fallout 4 look at how the community has managed to improve performance - look at Boris Vorontsov and his work on ENB.

I would consider CCP Games much more technically competent.

A post on AT forums summed it up:

It may or may not be the case if it was an argument being made by one person. This is not the case.

Many people have been making this case about Fallout 4, but the truth is that these issues are not new and as such are very well understood. Boris Vorontsov, of ENB fame, has been making this case successfully for a long time. It is well understood that the engine in recent Fallout and Elder Scrolls games, which began as a toolkit in Gamebryo and is now called the Creation Engine, has had significant inefficiencies that have gone unaddressed by Bethesda for over a decade, many of them having their origin in Oblivion.

Here is a question you should try and answer: how does a programmer with no access to source code resolve significant performance and stability issues with Bethesda games weeks or even only days after a game is released, using code injection? That's exactly what ENB is. I, like many people, could not get Fallout 4 to run at launch because of the state it was released in. I had to wait for the first ENB for Fallout 4 before I could even play the game. Thankfully I didn't have to wait long as Boris had a beta ENB out fours days after Fallout 4 became available to the public.

The Creation Engine offers a lot of creative freedom. It's modability is its strength. At the other end of the scale, the Creation Engine's graphics are garbage, with a lot of functionality jerry-rigged in using third party APIs. Just ask Boris about the way the Creation Engine does shadows...

The Creation Engine is out of date, but worse than that, it's out of date bad code. This means that it produces visuals that are well behind state of the art and takes silly hardware to produce those out of date visuals.


They also have access to the id Tech engine,since their parent company owns it - it seems penny pinching and reusing a 21 year old engine(for the most part),for another decade seems what they aim to do.

So unless this "Gamebryo engine" they use is something essentially brand new,we can all call it now - Starfield/Elder Scrolls 6 will look terrible,run badly,be full of bugs which existed for decades,etc. Except now since Bethesda is trying to make all mods paid ones,there will be no mod community to "fix" the issues.

Edit!!



Jesus wept... Seriously??? So capped 60fps and horribly clunky movement again... I was incredibly excited for the new TES game, not so much anymore.

Dont they have access to ID assets now? Id engine or whatever they use would be a huge step up surely?

I think they don't care anymore since its just cheaper to not use id Tech. I am not sure what they are smoking,once CDPR comes out with Cyberpunk 2077,Bethesda will really start to look behind the times.

Maybe its for the best,they need a jolt to the system.
 
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Their holding company is not exactly poor,and they have access to a great engine already - are they trying to scupper their own company?? I seriously hope its not the Creation/Gamebryo engine we have known for the last 21 years,and something totally different,ie,based on id Tech technology as soon their will be more bandaids left than a proper engine. .
 
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The future doesn't look good:

"Todd Howard himself told Gamestar that "For Fallout 76 we have changed a lot. The game uses a new renderer, a new lighting system and a new system for the landscape generation. For Starfield even more of it changes. And for The Elder Scrolls 6, out there on the horizon even more. We like our editor. It allows us to create worlds really fast and the modders know it really well. There are some elementary ways we create our games and that will continue because that lets us be efficient and we think it works best." "

Yet at every generation since Morrowind they added stuff on top of the creaking old engine,whilst not fixing any of the underlying problems. Some of these problems in the engine have persisted for 21 years.

Also looking at the amount of issues with Fallout76 which are laughable and directly tied to Bethesda using an old engine not suited for an online game,and that is also using a less dense world(than Fallout 4),much lower numbers of NPCs,smaller settlements,etc. Yeah,I think CDPR is going to own them.

Did you know there are bugs in the Switch version of Skyrim from the original release?? Bethesda hadn't bothered fixing them.

DICE and what they have done with Frostbite,or even Crytek what they have done with CryENGINE in one revision is more progress than Bethesda in like 10 years.

I think people like us have been way too forgiving as customers. We put up with the crap graphics,bugs and spent more due to their poor hardware optimisation,and modders fixed their games at no cost to them.

Its like they are living the meme now.

Edit!!

To also show some other issues the engine has - you cannot climb ladders.

Only stairs.
 
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I get why they keep the framework, but if they don't vastly and i mean VASTLY improve the animation (environmental awareness at the veeeeeery least), scripting and whatever they use for the cell/worldspace's then i'm over it permanently. Making the rendering API vulkan/raytracing compatible would be beneficial aswell.

Ultimately it's down to the limitations of the consoles, which is probably why it's "next gen" and why they did FO76 to provide a gap without too much wasted Dev time.

The problem is the engine is terrible for consoles - it does very poor core loading,ie,is very limited to one to two cores,which leads to stuttering,etc which also is an issue on PC but more on consoles. Console CPUs are not made with maximum single core performance in mind.

NmwGdoM.png

Its not fixed with even with Fallout 76 - this is the same behaviour seen from Morrowind.It also seems to love very fast storage more than many other games,very fast RAM,etc.

Then on PC the whole engine has physics and framerates tied together - its hilarious when lockpicking goes south,if you unlock framerate on the PC,or you shoot someone and their body goes flying into the sky.

To add DX12/Vulkan they will need to literally redo most of the engine.

Personally I think they know the new consoles will have better core performance,so won't bother.
 
I imagine it's because they only ever needed to focus on what most people had, and they're damned slow to adapt before hand so they were programming for duel cores for ages after consoles had 3+.

I think Windows handles most of it nowadays by itself, but it's still up to the dev to thread it properly, the issue is that they've made design choices that hinder them (the FPS sync problem, which is a creation engine addition).

Its becoming a bit of a joke,especially with relative newcomers like CDPR now being able to produce great openworlds,and also are more technically competent.

The issue is if they keep using resources that poorly it limits what they can do in a world,whereas competitors who are willing to invest in better tech can do more.

This is the problem now,they have more competition.

Edit!!

I have seen some arguments elsewhere staying with the engine will probably make modding easier but I am not so sure that is worth it TBH. Firstly a fair amount of the modding is there to fix issues with the games,the modding tools might be well understood but are clunky and finally ease of modding should not come at the expense of everything else!! Also Bethesda is probably as time progresses push more and more stuff through Creation Club anyway.

Also games like The Witcher 3 support free modding officially with a newer engine.
 
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From what I have seen it’s had some pretty good upgrades. The latest version had a completely new rendering, lighting and landscape rewrite. Which allows a massive increase in detail and things like unique weather systems at distance. The next version for Elder Scrolls VI should have further improvements

Code from 7 years ago is perfectly normal. All the other major engines I listed have even older code still in them and CDPR are not newcomers they are 24 years old and The Witcher game came out over a decade ago.

You’re making a big deal over nothing about it being an old engine. So what if there is old code in it and it’s based on an old engine. That has nothing to do with anything. Using old engines and upgrading them is standard practise that most of the big brands do.

Either you have never really played their games for any extended time,are an endless optimist or really,really like God Howard and can't see them doing any wrong. Now you are defending Fallout 76 like it is a technical tour de force. Maybe they will finally be able to use vertical ladders in the next update known as Starfield.LOL.

Maybe the next iteration will be a total ground up rewrite,yes that will be it which will always happen when the next game will be released since Morrowind. Awesome. I will see it when I believe it.

PS:

Have you noticed how everyone else so far is less enthused about it than you are.

But each to their own and whatever floats your boat OFC.
 
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if only they would use the doom engine and at least give us vulcan support. would be soooo much better than the shambling old beast that is the creation engine. the excuse of they have upgraded it is just baffling as even upgraded the same fps bugs are in the game due to the way it works. from a development stand point yeah its probbaly quicker to build the world and tweak it but from a support and post launch aspect its a bloody nightmare with HUGE patches and the same 10+ year old bugs cropping up. some of the devs must have said something by now about using the doom engine or even just trying it.

Maybe they will try to enchant the Creation engine??

:p

What have they really been doing inbetween Skyrim rereleases/remasters?
It's time to start afresh.

Counting their wads of Dollar bills?? :p
 
Wrong on both counts I am not an endless optimist and I have many hours in Morrowind and Fallout and its clear the engine has had major upgrades between those games. I have not played Fallout 76 yet and I never said it was a technical tour de force or that they cannot do any wrong. What I said was the core game engine behind Fallout 76 has had some major improvements, major core rewrites and new features added from Fallout 3 to Fallout 76.

While the engine is far from perfect it is hardly unchanging like you are making out. I see no reason why the engine improvements will not continue with Elder Scrolls VI.

 
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...speed-hacks-if-you-unlock-the-framerate-on-pc


I'm no game developer, but even just from playing a few multiplayer games it's common practice for there to be some kind of standard "tick rate" for which every multiplayer action or indeed physics runs at, completely separately to any rendering loop/tied to fps.

Also there is issues like this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/fo76/comments/9up1g6/fallout_76_uses_tls_to_encrypt_data/

The Bethesda launcher is also meh too(which you need for Fallout 76 and probably future games from them at this rate). It seems to be very poorly coded(just look at the thread):

https://bethesda.net/community/topic/60704/launcher-slow-updating-and-takes-all-of-the-bandwidth/8

These are the kind of things a company with the sort of resources ZeniMax Media has we shouldn't be seeing.
 
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