Bi-Amping with Onkyo 609

[halliwelldj]

Hi all, I've just bought B&W 684s for my Onkyo 609 and just setting up Bi-Amping the speakers.
Just need a little help with it as it says in the manual on the 609 the TOP speaker terminal bindings should go into the 7.1 (surround back or front high) section in the back of the 609 and the bottom speaker terminal bindings should go into the normal FRONTs section of the 609 amp, now I have done this but when I run Audyssey it doesn’t seem to want to pick up the Surround back or front highs that have been connected with the TOP bindings of the speakers.

I have now tried plugging the TOP speaker terminal bindings in the Surround section of the amp and Audyssey has picked up these but I'm not sure it is completely correct doing it this way? Does anyone know if this is completely working the Bi-Amp now or does it have to be in the 7.1 section of the amp?
Also it did set the Surrond cross over in the setting to 45Hz and the Fronts to 150Hz so I set the Surronds to 150Hz also is this correct?

Thank you!

 

[lucid]

Make sure you follow all the instructions in the manual about bi-amping.

Remove bus bars
Tweeters to SBL & SBR
Manually set the speakers as bi-amped

 

[Ste]

If you are bi-amping and get it 'wrong' you'll end up with either treble or bass only, it will be pretty obvious. If it's now sounding okay (hopefully better than before!) then you've probably cracked it..

 

[Ste]

I don't think the cross overs should apply bi-amping full sized speakers? Never done this with home cinema!

 

[halliwelldj]

Make sure you follow all the instructions in the manual about bi-amping.

Remove bus bars
Tweeters to SBL & SBR
Manually set the speakers as bi-amped

Yup I have followed everything apart from where the TOP speaker terminal cables go into the 7.1 I've put them into the Surrond part of the amp.

If you are bi-amping and get it 'wrong' you'll end up with either treble or bass only, it will be pretty obvious. If it's now sounding okay (hopefully better than before!) then you've probably cracked it..

It is sounding very good at the moment I just wanted to make sure I have done everything correctly as I don't want to be missing something stupid that could improve it greatly.

I don't think the cross overs should apply bi-amping full sized speakers? Never done this with home cinema!

I don't know but it did set them to 150Hz the fronts and the Surrond to 45Hz so I just figured they should both be the same since its the same speaker? Anyone know if this is correct?

 

[lucid]

I don't think the cross overs should apply bi-amping full sized speakers? Never done this with home cinema!

This is passive bi-amping. Even though the amp is feeding the HF and LF inputs independently it still makes use of the speaker's crossover to filter for HF and LF feeds. You could take the LF or HF feed from the amp and put it in to a basic speaker and get full range sound. The amp isn't filtering the frequencies.

Active bi-amping is where the speaker crossovers are removed (or completely bypassed). With a two-way speaker the power amps are effectively connected directly to each driver. The frequency split is done between the pre-amp and power amp using an outboard crossover.

 

[halliwelldj]

This is passive bi-amping. Even though the amp is feeding the HF and LF inputs independently it still makes use of the speaker's crossover to filter for HF and LF feeds. You could take the LF or HF feed from the amp and put it in to a basic speaker and get full range sound. The amp isn't filtering the frequencies.

Active bi-amping is where the speaker crossovers are removed (or completely bypassed). With a two-way speaker the power amps are effectively connected directly to each driver. The frequency split is done between the pre-amp and power amp using an outboard crossover.

There is way too much to know about setting up everything it's crazy. So any chance have I done this correctly with the cross over setting both the Fronts to 150Hz and the Surrond?

 

[lucid]

Yup I have followed everything apart from where the TOP speaker terminal cables go into the 7.1 I've put them into the Surrond part of the amp.

You need to connect the speaker's HF inputs to the Surround Back L&R channels. The instructions appear very clear on this point.

I don't know but it did set them to 150Hz the fronts and the Surrond to 45Hz so I just figured they should both be the same since its the same speaker? Anyone know if this is correct?

You're confusing (or the amp is confusing) the main/sub crossover frequency, and if your surround crossover point is coming in at 45Hz then there's something very wrong.

First things first - When bi-amping with your 609 it isn't filtering the sound for the HF and LF feeds. If the amp were capable of doing this then there would be an option in the setup menus to adjust the bi-amp crossover point between the Front Speaker bass and treble units. There's no such option.

The only crossover frequency control you have is for the 5.1/7.1 set up. This is where you dial in the size of the speakers (Small/Large) and set the bass crossover for the channels. This has nothing to do with bi-amping.

Next - A crossover point of 45Hz is a very low frequency. That's a sort of rumbly bass note that makes stuff vibrate off shelves. Unless you have 684's as rear speakers then the crossover point should be much higher - somewhere in the region of 80-120Hz is typical. If Audyssy is calculating the crossover point as 45Hz from a bookshelf-sized speaker then something is very wrong.

 

[halliwelldj]

Alright I'll start over cause my lack of knowledge and stupidness is confusing! I just took some pictures to try and help what I'm trying to say.

Okay so this is my 609 AMP connections:

http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/halliwelldj/304.jpg

From here you can see that I have plugged them into the surrond section of the amp because when I tried to plug them into the Surround Back Or Front High section (Like the manual said) of the amp you can see next to the surround section Audssey did not pick them up at all it only played the test tune once for each speaker instead of picking up it had two plugged in. I then tried it setup like I have it now and it picked it up and played two test tunes for each speaker.


Next is the speaker terminals

http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/halliwelldj/310.jpg

Here you can see I have 2 connections plugged in the Top ones are going to the Surround section of the amp and the Bottom are going to the Front Left and Right connections. (sorry for the bad picture on this one)


Here is the setup on the amp showing Bi-Amp is on

http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/halliwelldj/312.jpg


Here is the speaker configuration in the setup

http://s592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/halliwelldj/?action=view&current=316.jpg

As you can see the Fronts are set to 150Hz and so is the Surround, Audssey set this to 45Hz (I changed this to 150Hz)


and lastly the second page to the speaker configuration

http://s592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/halliwelldj/?action=view&current=319.jpg

Here you can see everything but the LPF of LFE is greyed out this is like this when I tried the Top of the speaker terminals into the Surround Back Or Front High section.

Sorry for the complete idiot I am and confusing you!

 

[james.miller]

From here you can see that I have plugged them into the surrond section of the amp because when I tried to plug them into the Surround Back Or Front High section (Like the manual said) of the amp you can see next to the surround section Audssey did not pick them up at all it only played the test tune once for each speaker instead of picking up it had two plugged in. I then tried it setup like I have it now and it picked it up and played two test tunes for each speaker.

It's only suppose to play it once. Once per speaker. what you have done is hook up the surround back outputs to your tweeters and the front outputs to the bass drivers....this is why that tone is now playing twice and this is not correct. Do what the manual tells you to do and it will be working correctly.

 

[halliwelldj]

It's only suppose to play it once. Once per speaker. what you have done is hook up the surround back outputs to your tweeters and the front outputs to the bass drivers....this is why that tone is now playing twice and this is not correct. Do what the manual tells you to do and it will be working correctly.

Right then that clears things up abit, I thought it had to play the tones twice! I have now plugged them into the Surround Back Or Front High section (Like the manual said) and have now run Audssey again and here is what it came back with:

http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/halliwelldj/322.jpg
http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/halliwelldj/323.jpg
http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/halliwelldj/324.jpg



I know every room is different etc but does that look about right for 684 Floor stand speakers? I've seen on other forums etc people using 150Hz for there fronts or Full band?

 

[TONY]

My Onkyo 808 is running a 5.1 setup and have my front speakers bi-amped by connecting the surround back speaker outputs on the receiver to the tweeter terminals on the front speakers with the front speaker outputs on the receiver connected to the woofer terminals on the front speakers and then I set the front speakers to bi-amped in the setup menu and as far as I can tell it's all good and I had no problems setting up with Audyssey.

 

[lucid]

Right then that clears things up abit, I thought it had to play the tones twice! I have now plugged them into the Surround Back Or Front High section (Like the manual said) and have now run Audssey again and here is what it came back with:

http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/halliwelldj/322.jpg
http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/halliwelldj/323.jpg
http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/halliwelldj/324.jpg



I know every room is different etc but does that look about right for 684 Floor stand speakers? I've seen on other forums etc people using 150Hz for there fronts or Full band?

So, looking at the three photos here you have no rear surround speakers and no centre speaker. You're just running the front L&R and a Sub. Is that right? The only speakers you own are the sub and the 684's ???

 

[halliwelldj]

So, looking at the three photos here you have no rear surround speakers and no centre speaker. You're just running the front L&R and a Sub. Is that right? The only speakers you own are the sub and the 684's ???

That is correct! I just have the 684s and a sub. I didn't know I confused everyone so much! ><

 

[lucid]

I know every room is different etc but does that look about right for 684 Floor stand speakers? I've seen on other forums etc people using 150Hz for there fronts or Full band?

The only time I'd expect a crossover point of 150Hz is with the tiny Bose-size micro speakers. Full range is fine in theory if you have floor standers. The catch is that you end up with three speakers delivering low bass. Getting an even bass response with so many bass drivers can be something of a challenge; especially if the front L&R are close to a rear or side wall or shoved in a corner.

What we strive for is clean extended bass that is tuneful, articulate and accurate. I've been to so many home set-ups where the owner has struggled with that. They've bought good gear, and done all the auto set-up stuff, but the bass still sounds like it's thumping out one note and too loud and for too long. It's not pleasant or impressive.

The British Hi-Fi industry cracked this problem years ago. They realised that customers were more likely to continue with the hobby if their new gear was set up correctly by someone with a bit of experience and knowledge. The specialist dealers offered a home setup service as part of the price. The AV retail industry could learn a trick or two.

Manufacturers want customers to be constantly upgrading, and they've achieved this. Home cinema systems rarely work right even with all the auto setup wizards. So customers ditch perfectly good gear when it would be much cheaper just to get their existing gear working right.

 

[TONY]

That is correct! I just have the 684s and a sub. I didn't know I confused everyone so much! ><

It was the fact that you have an Onkyo 609 and not a stereo amp, I just presumed that you would be using more than just the front speakers with a surround sound receiver.

 

[halliwelldj]

The only time I'd expect a crossover point of 150Hz is with the tiny Bose-size micro speakers. Full range is fine in theory if you have floor standers. The catch is that you end up with three speakers delivering low bass. Getting an even bass response with so many bass drivers can be something of a challenge; especially if the front L&R are close to a rear or side wall or shoved in a corner.

What we strive for is clean extended bass that is tuneful, articulate and accurate. I've been to so many home set-ups where the owner has struggled with that. They've bought good gear, and done all the auto set-up stuff, but the bass still sounds like it's thumping out one note and too loud and for too long. It's not pleasant or impressive.

The British Hi-Fi industry cracked this problem years ago. They realised that customers were more likely to continue with the hobby if their new gear was set up correctly by someone with a bit of experience and knowledge. The specialist dealers offered a home setup service as part of the price. The AV retail industry could learn a trick or two.

Manufacturers want customers to be constantly upgrading, and they've achieved this. Home cinema systems rarely work right even with all the auto setup wizards. So customers ditch perfectly good gear when it would be much cheaper just to get their existing gear working right.

I kinda thought that 150Hz was for small stuff but I had seen it used for floor stands as well and through me off abit. I think I'll just try the 40Hz it has set it on for now as well as trying full band, see what they are both like.

The fronts are not near side walls really they are at least a metre or 2 away from them, the doors they are in front of are about half a metre to a metre away. The sub is boxed into a corner which is next to the Left front speaker and behind the cabinet you can just about make it out in the pictures I took to show the room layout.
http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/halliwelldj/IMG_6568.jpg
http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt3/halliwelldj/IMG_6556.jpg

It was the fact that you have an Onkyo 609 and not a stereo amp, I just presumed that you would be using more than just the front speakers with a surround sound receiver.

Well the I didn't want to be stuck with only a stereo amp if I wanted to upgrade to anymore speakers in the future.