Budget HTPC for living room (1080p/DTS-MA etc).

Associate
Joined
10 Nov 2004
Posts
2,237
Location
Expat in Singapore
Hi,

I am looking at the possibility of putting a HTPC in the living room to connect to my Plasma TV and projector.

Specs;

  • Runs Win7 (will be connecting to my WHS 2011 machines shared folders to get the media).
  • HDMI connection to my Yamaha 667 AV amp
  • Able to stream HD audio (DD HD and DTS MA etc) over HDMI
  • Video up to 1080p (1080i also supported)
  • Can handle 40+GB Bluray ISOs (pref with menus) pulled from a network share (Gbit network already in place)
  • Can handle some internet browsing.
  • Will work with wireless keyboard, mouse and IR remote (already have remote and receiver from creative labs).
  • Smallish case (Smaller than my amp, so sort of set top box, DVD player or xbox360 size would be great).
  • Low power and low cost. Something like the Revo, ION based or i3/AMD equiv would all be fine.

Cost is more important than power as long as the above specs are met.

I was thinking to using XMBC but very open to other suggestions.

I will be upgrading from an AC Ryan HD2 / WD LiveTV so a media player is not what I am looking for.

Ideas, suggestions, advice please.

Thanks
RB

Update: I currently also have 4GB DDR3 ram floating around.
 
Last edited:
Thanks guys, will take a look at the thread R088ieS86.

Had a dig around and came up with the following (prices in USD as OCUK do not ship to where I am).

MB: MSI AMD Zacate E350/dual core AMD Hudson M1/DDR3/A&V&GbE/Mini ITX Motherboard E350IS-E45.
US$130
Harddrive: WDC 3200VS SATA 2.5inch 320GB 5400RPM 8MB HD
US$48
Case: Apex MI-100 4BAY Desktop Blk/Silver 250W ATX12V Mitx
US$55

So around US$230 -> S$270 -> GBP135 + delivery & tax.

Not sure if the case will be small enough though. The shuttle cases are to tall I think as the XBox 360 just fits nicely in my TV unit. Also need to confirm the motherboard can handle DTS-MA etc.

Also looking at a remote with trackpad or the like. Have come across the following, anyone have experience of them (all around 25-30 quid) ?

Superior Loftek Rii Touch N7 Mini Wireless Keyboard.
Rii Mini Wireless Keyboard with Touchpad (RT-MWK01).
Boxee Remote.

Thoughts ?

Thanks
RB
 
Trying to find info on the M1 Hudson boards isn't easy.
Worst case senario put a low model silent 5400/6400 series graphics card in.
They all support what you need:

Thanks for that.

This case: Silverstone Milo ML03B Micro ATX
If it is available to you is shorter height wise but slightly longer width wise. But you will need a PSU.

Not bad. Found this as well though which looks pretty small.

Antec Mini-ITX Case for Motherboards ISK 310-150
- US$80 inc external 50W power.

RB
 
The shuttle i recommended is the best option power wise and if your unsure about hd audio support over hdmi just add a £25 graphics card.

I have built a machine with the antec mini itx case it was horrible and if you check out the reviews for e350 board there not that great a socket 775 setup with one of the cheap dual cores is better which theres a shutle barebone for that too £100.

Could you post up a picture of the place you plan to put it?

I have a LGA775 dual core CPU and board knocking about (and memory) but the board is pretty big and I cannot remember the CPU model.

This is where it will go (bottom shelf, replacing the WD LiveTV which is second from the left). I cannot put any more on the top as the projector screen comes down to the top of the center speaker. Yes the bunnys are for the Chinese year of the rabbit and this was taken during our renovation so the wall is painted properly now.

DSCN1558.jpg
DSCN1558.jpg


RB
 
Thought I'll chime in and say I have an E350 and it handles BluRays, 720p MKV's and 1080p flash without issue along with recording tv with a duel tuner card. The case I used was a relative of the Antec Fusion, the Antec 2480. Same case just doesn't have the front LCD panel or volume control knob.

All fits perfectly with only one fan used for air flow and so far not had any issues with it :)

Thanks Silver. Can you confirm wether it will play Bluray ISOs at 1080p with full DTS MA or Dolby TrueHD via the HDMI connection please. In the thread posted by R088ieS86, it seems that there may be some issues at these high levels.

I can see now your limited for space here's an option

Antec ISK 310 - 150 Mini ITX Case - With 150W PSU £66
Biostar TH61 ITX SKT 1155 VGA DVI HDMI 8 Channel Audio ITX Motherboard £63
Intel Core i3-2100 3.10GHz (Sandybridge) Socket LGA1155 Processor - Retail £92
Kingston HyperX Blu 4GB (2x2GB) DDR3 PC3-12800C9 1600MHz Dual Channel Kit (KHX1600C9AD3B1K2/4G) [KHX1600C9AD3B1K2/4G] £32
OCZ Vertex 30GB 2.5" SATA-II Solid State Hard Drive (OCZSSD2-1VTX30G) £46

£300

Sounds good edGfaCTor. I have been looking at the i3 since reading the thread mentioned above. I have 4GB ram handy (either 1x4GB or 2x2GB) as I bought 12GB for my server running SBS2011 (i3 2500) and when I downgraded to WHS2011 found I could only use 8GB of it :(.

I can source the MB from the same place as the other parts so I can get for;

Case: US$80
MB: US$80
CPU: US$120
Ram: not needed
HDD:
Opt1: WD Scorpio blue 320GB US$50
Opt2: The Seagate® Momentus® XT 250 - US$90
Opt3: 50GB Vertex II - US$120 (30GB prob too small for Win7 & something like XBMC and assorted crap my wife will install like PPStream and various Facebook rubbish).

Total (exc delivery)
Option1: US$330
Option2: US$370 (really any speed adv. for this hybrid drive for a HTPC ?)
Option3: US$400 (Sanforce controllers seeming to have issues waking from sleep. Best non-Sanforce based SSD around 50GB ?).

Thanks
RB
 
Thanks R088ieS86,

I will probably go for the 2.5" hard disk for now and upgrade later if needed. Cost is a major factor at the moment but it is nice to know the options.

I am sort of tempted to get a second one for my sons pc as he is on an ageing dual core but put it in a bigger case with a video card. Again, another project for another day though.

So I will probably go for the i3 2100 and look to upgrade the hard disk to a Crucial M4 at a later date.

Any decent disk caching software out there so I could use extra ram as a disk cache if I have lots available, just a thought really ?

Thanks
RB
 
RB are you happy with that chipset over the Atom/Ion route? Given that those seem to use less power? I'm tempted to steal your build :p.

After reading the thread posted here from the XMBC forums it would seem that there may be issues streaming full Bluray ISOs with full HD audio on the lower spec'd integrated cpu/mb setups. Having been caught out a few times recently buying stuff that is spec'd to perform to a set standard which only just reaches it on a good day with a favourable wind I would rather over spec than try to force it in. Like building a PC to the min specs of a fav game, it will work, sort of, but would be quite a bit better if you had chucked just a little more cash at it. By all accounts, an i3 should be able to handle all HD movie stuff and then some...

I am going on reviews and user feedback though as I have not bought yet :D.

Mind you. Will 10/100 ethernet stream full 1080p? Because I can upgrade my server for less than £300.

Short answer, for 2D full bluray on a network fairly empty of traffic with reasonable network equipment (NICs, routers etc) then you should have no problems.

Longer answer...

As taken from Wikipedia (Bluray).
BD Video movies have a maximum data transfer rate of 54 Mbit/s, a maximum AV bitrate of 48 Mbit/s (for both audio and video data), and a maximum video bit rate of 40 Mbit/s.

So, in an ideal world;
The max for the 2D Bluray spec, 54Mbps (6.75MB/s).
The max for the 100Mbit network is 100Mbps (12.5MB/s in control/error correction etc).

Now in reality the max for 2d Bluray stands but the max for 100Mbit is affected by a number of things;

  • Network cabling.
  • Efficiency of the network interfaces on both ends and on devices in between.
  • Hard drive speeds on the source.
  • Network traffic.
  • Specification of intermediate network components.
  • Any other actions the source or destination devices may be engaged in.

A fairly stably attained throughput on a 100Mbit connection should be around 85Mbps (10.625MB/s) payload data rate (ie. reported rate in windows after it strips all the error correction and control data out). So with a reasonable setup we are still well within the specs for Bluray.

3D Bluray ups the ante a bit through. 3D Bluray has a max video throughput of 64Mbps (Main TS @ 48Mbps & sub TS @ approx 24Mbps used for the second eyes image). You also need to add to this control data and audio data. Unfortunately the Bluray Rom white paper here doesn't specify, that I could find, the max total bandwidth required for 3D (audio, video and control/correction). Hopefully someone else can reference a reputable source for this info. It is also clear from the 2D specs that the max audio spec'd bandwidth plus the max 3D video spec'd bandwidth does not equal the max total spec'd bandwidth for 3D Bluray. I would personally err on the side of caution and go for Gbit network if possible for 3D.

Eg this bundle: http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=BU-188-OK&tool=3 would happily transcode the stuff I need in full 1080p, its just a case of whether or not my TVs ethernet card can cope with it.

For this I would first go back to basics. What do you want to achieve and what do you currently have ?. I would include thinking about things like future compatibility (TV/HTPC), storage space, ease of access for ripping movies (HTPC / Server), other things you may wish to do (internet browsing, streaming from internet sites like Spotify/GrooveShark/iPlayer, Torrents or NBZGet), Facebook (for the wife naturally), webcam (suggesting for contact with friends and family and not setting up a PayPerView service ;)), email. Remember people tend to 'grow' into solutions if they have the room so a HTPC with internet browsing may then be used to stream video or music and check email etc and you don't need to sit at a desk. Using XMBC you could also control a HTPC with an Android or Apple phone/pad. On the other hand, none of those things may interest you or your family (how much of your mobile phones functions do you use for example. I know I use very few).

The stuff linked to should perform pretty well on the server :D.

Mind I'm being dense. I started to look at a HTPC because I want to run XBMC.

Not so uncommon ;). I have bought a couple of movie players and both failed to meet my expectations (what they could stream, being able to run with moviesheets 'out of the box'). I would now prefer to not be locked in to one set of hardware and software and be at the mercy of the manufacturers dev team, this is why I am looking at the HTPC.

RB
 
I can source the MB from the same place as the other parts so I can get for;

Case: US$80
MB: US$80
CPU: US$120
Ram: not needed
HDD:
Opt1: WD Scorpio blue 320GB US$50
Opt2: The Seagate® Momentus® XT 250 - US$90
Opt3: 50GB Vertex II - US$120 (30GB prob too small for Win7 & something like XBMC and assorted crap my wife will install like PPStream and various Facebook rubbish).

Ok, think I will change the WD Scorpio Blue for a Black (+US$5 difference). At 320GB the black is faster, as quiet and less power hungry;

Approx price (click on model for WD spec sheets)
Scorpio Blue (320): US$50
Scorpio Blue (1TB): US$127 (WD10JPVT not the lower spec WD10TPVT). Note: no stock at internet supplier.
Scorpio Black (320): US$55
Scorpio Black (750): US$110
WD Green (2.5TB): US$115
Crucial M4 SSD (64): US$162

Internal transfer (read).
Scorpio Blue (320): 116MB/s
Scorpio Blue (1TB): 150MB/s
Scorpio Black (320): 147MB/s
Scorpio Black (750): 180MB/s
Green (2.5TB+): 123MB/s - Fastest for a WD green drive.
Crucial M4 SSD (64): 415MB/s

Power (read-write/idle/standby/sleep)
Scorpio Blue (320): (2.5W/0.8W/0.2W/0.2W)
Scorpio Blue (1TB): (1.4W/0.59W/0.18W/0.18W)
Scorpio Black (320): (1.75W/0.8W/0.2W/0.2W)
Scorpio Black (750): (1.75W/0.8W/0.2W/0.2W)
Green (2.5TB+): (6.5W/5.5W/0.8W/0.8W)
Crucial M4 SSD (64): (150mW/<65mW)

Acoustics (idle/seek) dBA
Scorpio Blue (320): (22/25)
Scorpio Blue (1TB): (22/25)
Scorpio Black (320): (22/25)
Scorpio Black (750): (28/28)
Green (2.5TB+): (24/25) - 29 seek in performance mode
Crucial M4 SSD (64): (Silent)

The reason for not considering the SSD is that I hope to upgrade my main PC from the VertexII 60GB SSD it has to a 128GB SSD of some type (just would not use the sleep mode) but cash is not available for a 128GB SSD at the moment as well as the cost of the HTPC.

RB
 
Does this not do everything you want already?

http://uk.asus.com/Eee/EeeBox_PC/EeeBox_PC_EB1501P/

Sure it doesn't play bluray off disk directly but with XMBC it should play iso's fine, plus it has a remote, usb3 x2 for your storage needs etc etc and comes ready to go straight out of the box.

An interesting idea but around US$500 (dep on config) as opposed to US$330 for an i3 system + cost of remote, mouse and keyboard. For size it could be a good move but for power to cost, not so much.

Anyone know of any decent reviews especially with network speeds and streaming Bluray ISOs. I have used a couple of media players that can handle streaming bluray ISOs and playing Bluray ISOs but not both together.

Thanks
RB
 
It may be a bit more but it has the os in there as well, and is incredibly small. I cant link you a decent review but im sure you can google one. A colleague of mine bought one of these over the weekend and tells me it is doing everything it should so far and performing admirably.

Sure, I hear ya. As you say, for a small package, it seems to be a good contender. For something a bit bigger with upgradability maybe something else.

Would you mind asking your friend how it copes with the items listed in the first post. I will have a hunt for reviews and post them up here when I find them.

Thanks
RB
 
I am that colleague :)
I'll try to answer the above regarding the eee box

Thanks VM for that.

For y the 40GB ISOs and the HD Audio is what I really would need confirmation on if I was going to buy. Unfortunately I have been the victim of creative specs in the past so tend not to trust the too much any more.

I'm sure it will be of great use to others following the thread though.

RB
 
Appreciate the feedback despite me hijacking your thread RB. So I'll carry on if you don't mind..:p.

Np, more the merrier as long as it stays on the core subject (HTPCs) ;).

I'm now thinking about this:
Crucial RealSSD M4 64GB 2.5" SATA 6Gb/s Solid State Hard Drive - £95.99
Intel Core i3-2100 3.10GHz (Sandybridge) Socket LGA1155 Processor - £89.99
MSI H67MA-E35 Intel H67 (Socket 1155) DDR3 Micro-ATX Motherboard - £59.99
Corsair XMS3 4GB (2x2GB) DDR3 - £26.99
Antec ISK 310 - 150 Mini ITX Case - w/150W PSU - £70
Total : £354.35​

There may be a clash between the Micro-ATX board and Mini-ITX case unless the board size is a typo.

My home network is all gigabit, over HP switches, though my router is D-Link (Virgin 50Mb).

Should be fine for Bluray ISOs/KV etc as long as the server and the playing PC are also Gbit.

One question I have is about sound/video outputs. My TV has 8(iirc) HDMI inputs. My amplifier does not have a digital/hdmi audio in, so how would I go about working this? In the long term for my home cinema setup I will probably upgrade to a digital amp, but for the time being I want to use my home hifi (Hardmon Kardon). And as such, how do I output the sound? Normal RCA cables?

What is the model of the HK unit you have and your TV so I can lookup the specs ?. I think it really depends on how you want to set it up really.

If your TV has outputs for audio then you could go;
HTPC -> HDMI -> TV -> Amp. Advantage, can have sound without needing the amp on. Can easily change to HTPC -> HDMI -> AVR -> HDI -> TV with minimal fuss in the future.

if not then;
HTPC -> HDMI -> TV (Video only)
HTPC -> 3.5 jack-2 RCA -> Amp (sound only) - Problem may be that you would need the amp on for sound coming from the HTPC.

RB
 
Just to update.

Have finally got all the bits and put this unit together.

The Antec 310-150 case has about 2cm clearance in my unit under the TV but the fans blow sideways so ventilation should not be too much of an issue.

I am still looking for a slimline bluray player and 2.5" hard drive so I have put a 3.5" hdd in the space they would go as a temporary measure and it fits fine. I could get no picture from the HDMI output until I had installed Windows on and Windows must have sorted out some conflict as it now switches over to HDMI as soon as Windows starts to load. This means I cannot access the Bios via HDMI for the motherboard.

Now I am trying to sort out what software will best suit my needs and how to set it all up.

RB
 
Ok, ended up buying PowerDVD to play the bluray movies. Few issues in that the audio changes from HD bitstream to DTS/DD if you watch SD movies and does not automatically change back so need to use it only for HD movies and something else (MPC-HD) for other formats. The Android remote app for it is very good though.

Had lots of problems streaming Bluray ISOs (mounting with clone drive first) but after a network driver update it works fine now.

Still need to tie PowerDVD in to XMBC which unfortunately requires me to take all the spaces out of my file and directory names or it will not mount the ISOs in clone drive :(.

Oh and my amp is not displaying the surround sound format. People tell me that the info button will change it back but I cannot for the life of me find an info button on the remote or the front of the receiver.

On a plus note, I picked up a wireless Microsoft set in a popular chain store over here for around 10 quid. Basic set but works fine. Only thing I would like more is a backlit keyboard...:D

RB
 
Yeah but my AC Ryan HD2 plays the ISOs without an issue if only the main movie and Power DVD plays with menus and extras. Also no issues with embedded subtitles or needing to convert subtitle formats.

I am not so short of space and so ISOs are preferred as I get everything the disk gave in full quality for now and the future without the need to re-rip if some new standard / tech comes out.

Admittedly, playing the full ISOs in Power DVD means having to go through the adverts again which is really quite painful as I have not done that for quite a while now.
 
SO.....im back to my original question. That Asrock system for 280 quid looks really good.

Can you guys build a better one for bang per buck that meets my requirements? with a budget of 350?
thats my challenge to you! (please)

my other question would be how software decoding of the audio fares, compared to hardware decoding and sending as a bitstream, and whether software audio decoding through things like mpc hc etc...is cpu intensive?

I am not up on pricing in the UK at the moment but I can give you an example of a machine that will do all that and more.

I have used an i3-2100, Biostar H61 board mITX, cheap 2.5" drive, Antec ISK100-90 case (you will need a low profile CPU fan as well). This will do all you want perfectly. I have only changed the case as I have now added a HD6770 for paying games. My main use is for streaming Bluray ISOs over my network from my WHS-2011 server to my HTPC and bitstreaming audio via HDMI to my Yamaha 667 AV amp.

You will need some software for playing the Blurays and something for mounting the ISOs. I use virtual clone drive which is free and works well. I also bought Power DVD Ultimate which can also play Blurays with full menus etc from ISOs. I would hesitate to recommend Power DVD as it seems to have had its command line options removed (taking away the ability to script its startup with something like XBMC) and there is an issue with the sound output setting sticking on the best for the last file / disc played (i.e. you set to best HD audio output for a Bluray disc and then play a dvd it will reset to Digital audio and if you play another Bluray you have to reset it manually back to HD audio). I have not checked recently and there have been a couple of updates so this may have been sorted but be aware just in case it is still an outstanding issue.

The other big option to Power DVD is Total Media Theatre which gets good reviews and should be around the same price to buy.

Also checkout players like the AC Ryan HD2 and Western Digital HD Live TV as both also play Bluray ISOs although I cannot remember what the situation is with HD audio bitstreaming.

Oh and I can thoroughly recommend the Yamaha 667 if you end up looking for a AV amp. Lots of HDMI inputs, and has pre-outs so can be paired with a power amp (or two :D ) if you want to upgrade later. The newer replacement has lost the pre-outs.

RB
 
nice one,
i also found another guide confirming what you said. http://assassinhtpcblog.com/pdf_hardware_guide/assassinhtpcglog.com hardware guide 2012.01.pdf
absolutely essential reading.

i decided to go for:

i3 2105
60gb ocz agility ssd
silverstone itx case w/300w psu
asrock h67 itx (the one you recommended has the previous gen chipset)

total cost = 330.

i already had a spare 2gb ddr3 ram. guess you could add another £20 for that. and i already had a wireless keyboard/mouse combo, which i think cost me 30 quid a while ago.

that system, like yours....is so much better than that asrock one i was originally looking at, for not much more money.
ive built my gaming pc's all my life....can't believe i was about to fall into the consumer trap of buying a prebuild. duno what came over me. i think i was scared away initially coz i have no experience with small form factors.

im also amazed at how much onboard graphics has moved on, to the point where a discrete graphics card isn't necessary for bluray films.
apparently the HD3000 intel graphics thats on that i3 will do the job easily.

as for the amp, i already have an onkyo tsxr 308 (170), its low end as far as the onkyo range goes but it does everything i need. i coupled that to the Q acoustics 2000 speaker set (550)
my tv is pretty old gen, a 47" LG lh3000 from yesteryear, its pretty crap actually but it does the job. That was 600 back in 2010 summer.

total cost of my mini home cinema....£1700. considering im gona get 5+ years use out of all this equipment, thats not bad is it. £340 a year over 5 years.

Glad you found something to fit the budget that is way better than the all-in-one unit.

The difference between the H61 and H67 chipsets are fairly minor unless you are looking to add a SATA III SSD at some point and then it makes more sense to go H67. Never hurts to keep your options open though. Have a look at Intels Ark comparison here (just for reference). Both H61 and H67 are current gen but different levels (check the release dates in the link). There is another quick comparison here as well.

The Q-Acoustics has had some good review IIRC as a decent entry level setup. The Onkyo should also be pretty good. As you say, it ticks all the right boxes and should work well with the setup you now have.

RB
 
Back
Top Bottom