Call all CAD technicians

Banzai_Joe · 24 Aug 2015 at 12:08

Guys,
we currently use AutoCad 2013 at work. BUT we only use it for 2d.
We use Sketchup pro and Podium for doing 3d and rendering.

Now, i say 'we', but i mean our design team. I don't have a scooby doo about cad.
What i do know is that none of our guys are 'classically' trained, and the problem with that is there are often huge holes in the knowledge of how to actually use the software to its fullest let alone passing on such info to someone else. And some designers are quite protective of their bubble and may not want to reveal that they do not know how to use the 3d elements of cad for [i guess] obvious reasons.

As I.T. Manager i'm tasked with looking into 'fit for purpose' hardware and software and need unbiased advice really.
We have a new starter in 2 weeks time who uses revit. Now he may have to conform and use cad or i'll be asked to get him a revit licence.

Currently i'm thinking we use sketchup for 3d work as it is/was easier to pickup than 3d work in cad. If so, then i'm not sure that's the best use of what we have.
Had a chat with our main CAD tech and he says he'd love to use 3d, but we'd need training (and time). he says the scheduling alone would reduce costly mistakes and time.

If any cad guys out there can understand the situation do you have any advice to offer?

Thanks

Sandycheeks · 24 Aug 2015 at 12:23

When you took this new guy on did you inform him that he may have to adapt to new software?
Check first as this may be a non issue and he knows how to use the software you already use.

Banzai_Joe · 24 Aug 2015 at 12:26

TBH, that's not an/the issue.
It's more of "are we working as smart as we can by not using 3d in cad?"
It seems that all our design concepts are done in sketchup and from a brief chat with our cad tech he thinks sketchup can import cad files, but not vice versa.
If that's true then designing something in sketchup to then be completely redone in cad seems a mammoth waste of time and resource within the dept.

reecevxr · 24 Aug 2015 at 16:05

Banzai_Joe said:
TBH, that's not an/the issue.
It's more of "are we working as smart as we can by not using 3d in cad?"
It seems that all our design concepts are done in sketchup and from a brief chat with our cad tech he thinks sketchup can import cad files, but not vice versa.
If that's true then designing something in sketchup to then be completely redone in cad seems a mammoth waste of time and resource within the dept.

What line of business is it in? i.e are you using the 3d to make pretty pictures or actually design and make a real life object?

(If making pictures you can pretty much ignore below)

I work as a design engineer for a sheet metal fabrication company, we use a combination of autocad for 2d and Solidworks for 3D, most of the time i will design an assembly in 3d to visualise it and to make sure everything lines up and fits correctly, i can then pick out individual parts and use the original 3d models to make an engineering drawing (for folders, welders etc) and take the parts 2d flat pattern which i can edit the layers of in Autocad before it is cut on our laser. I.e i never draw out something more than once which is what is sounds like your talking about.

Most industrial based 3d programs such as solidworks and inventor will allow you to convert the model into many different output types depending on hows it going to be made, such as STL files for 3d printing & DXF/DWG for last cutting etc. We chose solidworks purely because most of our customers and suppliers also use Solidworks meaning we can exchange files much easier without having to make universal cad files (Step files) which require me to do some work to before i can do anything productive with them.

You can pay more and get something like Siemens NX but its expensive and overkill in a lot of industries, Solidworks is accurate enough for me. For instance i have been working on some grinding units for some of the main automotive engine manufacturers and working to 0.5mm tolerances over a 6 metre wide unit without any problems.

Banzai_Joe · 24 Aug 2015 at 16:11

We are an interior design and fit-out company. So we design refurbed or completely new floor layouts for some big kahunas, JLR, Specsavers, Loughoborough Uni.
Crytek was one of our clients. I got to go see the Cry3 engine in action way back when.

Aaanyway, yes its buildings, floor plans etc.
We are mindful of the new BIM compliance that will eventually come into action.
It's my job to ensure we are efficient and fit for purpose (without actually knowing how to use the programs they use).

adolf hamster · 24 Aug 2015 at 16:34

what do you want to use 3d for?

the normal process is make your design in 3d so you can visualise as you design, followed by using the 3d file to quickly knock up drawings and if you want you can do some nice looking renders for presentations and suchlike, and depending on the business things like fea are possible [albeit irrelevant to your industry].

in terms of effeciency, the quickest way imo is to use the same software to design then make drawings because then if you change the design, it'll automatically [within reason] update on the drawing, exporting to and from different cad packages breaks that link.

training on how to use the 3d elements of your current system would be the best way, although if your looking to change software then solidworks would be my vote for being the easiest to use with no training whatsoever. licenses don't come cheap though.

shadowscotland · 24 Aug 2015 at 17:09

Sketchup pro will export 2d and 3d info in .dwg format
But it really shows up errors in drawing style, non-solids and 3d curves are a pita
File size is also silly big unless they sorted that out recently.

I'm an architect btw - using Autocad LT for drawings (i don't use it for 3d so don't pay for 3d) and Sketchup for clients that can't read drawings and don't 'trust' hand sketches (which i find odd as you can cheat with digital images just as easily) We have full Autodesk suite and revit network licenses (so anyone in the office an use it - just not all at once)

Revit is a completely different beast.
It's a schedule of parts with a graphical interface - drawings are a by-product.
Changing a window or wall construction in revit takes 2 minutes and can instantly update 20-50 drawings, all the schedules and costings IF all windows and walls are the same.
The bigger the job - or if jobs are repeats of a 'kit of parts' - or prefab system - revit a great tool.
I've used it for VW showrooms with great success as all there kit is standard.
And in high rise flats it was a godsend.
But it was a nightmare for a operation theater floor refit.

If jobs are design lead one off
or small jobs (aka one floor) with loads of different constructions types:
4-10 partition wall types (fire, acoustic, protection, structural, finish etc) and every door is different revit is not your friend.

pc-guy · 24 Aug 2015 at 18:52

2D CAD is mostly what you need for drawing production and specifications

Sketchup is not really for precision drawings. but for interior design it is useful as it can quickly illustrate the intent

for both software you don't need super fast processing. CAD may eat up a lot of memory if you have multiple x-ref especially the large ones from Architects and Lightning engineers etc.

Sketchup can use graphics acceleration for 3D rendering etc.

So basically a lot of ram 16GB would suffice and a decent ish GFX card.

I know people use sketchup generally for a quick sketch...the key is in the software's name - SKETCH up. then they use 3D max studio for proper 3D rendering for presentation etc. but that can be out sourced to 3D FX companies to do.

If you do use revit, the aspect of revit can offer you is BIM integration. but for interior design it is hardly ever required. and revit is probably far to technical and complex for your trade

Banzai_Joe · 25 Aug 2015 at 08:35

Thanks for the input so far guys it really helps.
Our guys use Podium to render out of sketchup. I've just had OCUK build a 5820k based rig with 32gb ram and GTX980 and it renders in 6mins what took almost an hour using the Dell T1600 cad workstation (Xeon 4-core, 16gb ram, Quadro 2000).

pc-guy, you're right its our interior design girls that use Sketchup for nice interiors. But surely if the concept is approved they then have to transfer the technical aspects into cad.
So how do we bridge this gap? Could using 3d in cad do this? Sketchup may be easier but we are supposed to be professionals so i'm sure we could sort the know-how out.

D3K · 26 Aug 2015 at 11:13

I think you need to discuss details with a CAD solutions provider. They will be able to guide you in the right direction without taking the mick. If a basic needs analysis doesn't uncover the areas where you can improve upon, then it's possible to get a full business proposal analysis providing you indicate some kind of commitment. This would take into account workflows, data management, training, support, and bespoke additions, etc.

Revit alone is not going to cover your needs for reasons already mentioned. It really depends on to what extent you require to send out BIM models. If there is a high requirement then something like Autodesk's Building Design Suite Ultimate would be a good bet. It comes with Inventor, Revit, AutoCAD (MEP & Architecture), as well as 3DS Max, Navisworks & Showcase. The suites are not cheap but they are very good value when compared to single standalone products. And if you have infrequent users, you can buy a single license to cover multiple machines.

Send me a trust me if you would like more info.

Banzai_Joe · 26 Aug 2015 at 12:30

Thanks D3K.
I'll another chat with one or two of our designers to try and build a better picture.
I have to be a little not to step on any toes; designers might think their working practices are being brought into questions by someone who doesn't even do the same job and therefore unqualified to comment/critique.
Bringing in a 3rd party may well be just as bad, but i'll ponder on this.

Thanks again

stufflol · 26 Aug 2015 at 12:38

Get me a job

,

I work with 3Ds max to do designs/visuals.

I don't get to do enough of it in my current role as I would like

D3K · 26 Aug 2015 at 12:51

Banzai_Joe said:
I have to be a little not to step on any toes; designers might think their working practices are being brought into questions by someone who doesn't even do the same job and therefore unqualified to comment/critique.

This is the problem with ageing designers. The world around them is changing and they cling on to their knowledge and processes for dear life, dismissing any new advances as slower / not worth the investment vs return. Utter nonsense of course, but I do empathise with them - I would hate to have the legacy that I thought I was leaving behind me made completely moot.

At the end of the day, this is business. Your colleagues are there to make money for the business, not to be molly coddled.

Either way, have a word with a cad reseller and see what your options are. The complexity of your situation is not unique, they'll have heard variants of your story several times and can advise the best way forward that is as diplomatic as possible.

SPG · 26 Aug 2015 at 21:30

Your looking at Solidworks and maybe a copy of keyshot for renderings pretty pictures, both are extremely easy to use.

I would not let the vendor take you down the Autocad, Inventor or Solidedge works no matter the cost, it will cause you issues later on due to lack of user-base really.

Solidworks is excellent and there is quite a hobby background that use which means lots of stuff ready to use for free and lots of "cheap" people that now how to use it.

D3K · 28 Aug 2015 at 23:00

SPG said:
I would not let the vendor take you down the Autocad, Inventor or Solidedge works no matter the cost, it will cause you issues later on due to lack of user-base really.

They are a company who will be making their own assets. User base has nothing to do with it. A better argument would be compatibility with other suppliers, which is moot with Inventor 2016 as any major 3D CAD file can be placed directly in an assembly without conversion. I can't say Solidworks offers the same.

As for Autocad, it's the industry standard. Microstation, Alphacam, and all the rest are also-rans.
Revit is also the dominant player for the BIM industry so it makes sense to stick within the entire Autodesk environment.

However, there is no way to tell what is best for them without a proper needs analysis. That's why I would suggest speaking to CAD resellers from all the major players. Their salesmen will pitch the best fit to them, and then a decision can be made on which CAD tools are right for them. It may be Dassault, it may be Autodesk. I very much doubt it would be Siemens.

Banzai_Joe · 1 Sep 2015 at 16:06

Hi fellas,
thanks again for the info. I was supposed to have a meeting with my Line Manager about a lot of this today, but it got rain-checked.
Currently our designers backsave autocad 2013 into something ancient like 2007 to ensure compatibility with most of our clients and suppliers.

What we can't do is totally change the software so that training is required for everyone.
If we move to say Revit, then we at least have a new designer starting with us next week who can jump straight in. The others could receive proper training in a staggered way whilst others get help from the experienced designer.
We would also look at AutoCad 2016 and give our guys training on the 3D aspect of it to try and eliminate wasted time in sketchup.
That said, if it were a choice between autocad 2016 and revit for 3d purposes with training required for both......what would you guys do?
Ultiately BIM compliance will come into force somewhere down the line, especially with government projects so maybe jumping ship now is more prudent.