Can I use an A/V receiver and a dedicated stereo amp together?

[3t3P]

I have an Arcam FMJ A19 integrated amplifier with Arcam's irDAC connected to Sonos and Qobuz. This is currently powering Dali Ikon 6 Mk2 floorstanders.

I also have a Sony DN-1040 A/V receiver in a separate 5.1 configuration currently paired with Dali Zensors.

I am looking to buy a house this year, my intention is to upgrade my 5.1 system around ikon speakers with a BK sub (or two).

What I want to find out is can I have my amp integrated with everything such that I can easily enjoy 5.1 but if I want to go pure stereo can use my superior (for the task( integrated amplifier without disconnecting wires to/from the speakers?

Sort of like this though I don't fully understand it yet:
http://www.hifihunter.com/articles/improving-stereo-performance-surround-sound-setup-part-2/

I know there are switch boxes that let you physically prevent two sources from going to speakers at once?

Ideally I would have a pure hifi room that is acoustically treated and would probably upgrade to focal a r i a 926's.

However this starts to cost silly money, so want if possible to basically integrate a HiFi into an A/V system.

I also might want to run the speakers with a sub to improve bass response but again via the A19 not the Sony A/V.

Hope this makes sense cheers.

 

[lucid]

You can, but you need an AV receiver with pre-outs. Yamaha RX-V777 would do it.

How it works is that the AV receiver no longer powers the front L&R speakers. That becomes the job of the A19. For Hi-Fi use you leave the AV receiver off and just run the A19 with the stereo speakers and your pure stereo sources. It's a pure 2ch Hi-Fi; simple as that. I'll deal with the sub/subs a bit later.

For AV use then both the receiver and the A19 have to be on. The AV receiver has pre-outs. They're usually used for connecting a 5ch or 7ch power amp. However, there's nothing to say that you can't have a 2ch power amp just for the front L&R. That's what the A19 becomes. So the AV receiver Fr L&R pre-outs connect to a line input on the A19.

The trick then is to set the A19 volume to a point where it mimics the level that would have come from the receiver's own L&R speaker sockets. A smart phone running a dB meter app will do for the initial set-up. Record the test tone levels from the receiver while the speakers are still connected to it. Run the same test with the receiver volume display set to the same level, but this time with the A19 connected and powering the fronts. Once you have the volume dial on the A19 set to the correct position then mark the dial so it's possible to repeat this setting again and again. Then run the receivers AV setup routine to fine tune.

The AV receiver front L&R can be set to small or large, it's your preference. It's also still set as if speakers are still connected. All that's really changed from the receiver's point of view is that it no longer has to supply current to the front L&R. There'll be a very small improvement in power delivery to the centre and surrounds as a result.

TBH, I doubt you'll really need the subs in pure stereo mode with the Ikon floorstanders. But if you do decide you want the extra bass then you're going to have to buy a sub or subs that are worthy of pairing with the Ikons. You'll also need something with twin crossovers. That is to say that the sub can accept both high-level (speaker wire) connections and low level LFE connections at the same time and mix the two.

The high-level connection runs via one crossover that allows you to blend the sub to the floorstanders natural bass roll-off. The low-level input via the sub phono cable will be the LFE + whatever you've set as the AV speaker crossover point. In this way the subs will get signals for both AV and for pure stereo Hi-Fi replay. So that's the good news about how to make this work. The bad news is that the only sub in the BK range with this feature is the Gemini II, and that would be outclassed by the Ikons. You're going to be looking at spending a grand a piece for a couple of MJ Acoustics Reference 1's if you want the bass extension and the dual crossovers.

 

[covenantuk]

Doesn't the XLS200 have both high and low level inputs?

http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/sub_woofers/XLS200-DF.htm


"Simultaneous connection of high and low level sources"

 

[lucid]

Good shout. I'd missed that.

 

[3t3P]

Thank you both.

Lucid was hoping you'd chip in, I've just moved to Manchester, looking at Didsbury most likely.

The problem with doing this is with my AV receiver not having pre outs then its otherwise an excellent receiver and don't want to replace it.

The A19 has a dial but also an LCD so you could always set it to the same number.

I may just have to use a speaker switch and have either 5.1 or stereo.

BKs new P12 sub looks right for me and it too can do high and low level input simultaneously.

So even If I got one for 5.1 I may try it in stereo too to see if it adds anything.

I think most of my dissatisfaction lies from having no choice but to out the speakers in a corner in my flat with hard surfaces in the lounge. There isn't much separation either, less than two metres.

Might get an antimode for 5.1calibration, though tempted for stereo too, anyone used one?

 

[sastusbulbas]

Tape in/outs, it is how the majority of AV processors have been connected to primary stereo systems for years. It is what your AV input does. The zone two output (AV amp) I believe just connects to your AV input (Arcam) as a straight level line. But I think you end up with two volumes?

Not quite sure why things ever got so complicated. It is exactly how I kept my primary stereo system seperate from the subwoofer etc when I did AV.

 

[lucid]

Tape In/Outs are fixed level. They don't allow the AV receiver to control the master volume level.

 

[sastusbulbas]

Tape In/Outs are fixed level. They don't allow the AV receiver to control the master volume level.

Which is why I stated you may end up with two levels. My reply was based on what he has and it's current ability.

As for letting the AV control volume, then it sort of becomes mute, as the pre-amp stage of the slightly musically inferior AV amp will be detrimental in comparison to the stereo amp's pre out stage.
If that is not an issue, ditch the Arcam stereo amp, it's power amp stage is not enough to dictate it's use controlled by an AV amp of similar specification and distortion yet with higher wattage and current ability.

Or sell both and try to find a more musical AV amp? Though the Sony was well reviewed for music replay.

Personally whatever mixed combo ends up in situ will be a compromise anyway. What is more important, music or movies, whatever one is chosen is usually what I would advise as priority. If the majority of source material is MP3 then an AV amp is more than adequate, most pop related music downloads and CD's are too. Vinyl, well most new vinyl and re-issues are not all that great, as they use digital not analogue at the cutting stages anyway. Most people who prioritize vinyl would not be sharing it in an AV configuration.

It's the same with using an AV amp as a processor, sure you can add a power amp, but A, most lack the ability of a similar priced stereo, and B, you end up with two different amplification technologies/topologies, with two out of five speakers usually at slight odds. An AV processor does not do level correction on the fly.

Many moons ago I ran a Yamaha E800 using Classe Audio power amp for the main stereo chanel, do you think that processors amplification sounded the same? I ended up adding a second Classe and dropping the center chanel.

The OP has a 50w per chanel Arcam amplifier with a 160w per chanel Sony AV amp. Their gain/input sensitivities may well be different also, so the more volume he adds the louder one may get over the other. Usually not a huge difference, but possibly as detrimental as using an AV amp in place of a stereo amp for music to some ears possibly. Such as anyone who gets peeved at multi chanel speaker packages where the center sounds slightly different from the front which sound different to the rears due to them all being different sizes with different drivers with different sensitivity and load.

I could be wrong though, maybe the OP perceives a huge difference between the Arcam and Sony amplifiers when used with the same stereo source and speakers.

 

[3t3P]

I've not used the Sony amp on the Ikons, only on Zensor 5's.

Even in direct mode with the sony LCD off I was a bit underwhelmed, but I think is this is because the Zenzors are entry level baby floorstanders.

The Ikons are in a different league but I currently don't have the Sony AV with me to test, it might actually be ok with the ikons.

The priority is equal, I like my music and like watching films in 5.1. Ideally would have a dedicated room for both but this is currently not practical.

That's why I want to integrate if possible the gear I have, which does represent a significant investment afterall.

My source is Qobuz which is CD quality. I don't believe in high-res music files.

I guess I could consider selling the Arcam amp if I can't tell it apart from the Sony.

 

[lucid]

I've not used the Sony amp on the Ikons, only on Zensor 5's.

Even in direct mode with the sony LCD off I was a bit underwhelmed, but I think is this is because the Zenzors are entry level baby floorstanders.

The Ikons are in a different league but I currently don't have the Sony AV with me to test, it might actually be ok with the ikons.

The priority is equal, I like my music and like watching films in 5.1. Ideally would have a dedicated room for both but this is currently not practical.

That's why I want to integrate if possible the gear I have, which does represent a significant investment afterall.

My source is Qobuz which is CD quality. I don't believe in high-res music files.

I guess I could consider selling the Arcam amp if I can't tell it apart from the Sony.

The Ikons are bigger, but if the specs are correct they're actually a little harder to drive than the Zenzors (87dB vs 88dB), so if the Sony left you unimpressed with the Zensors............hmm. What was it about the sound that was underwhelming?

Yamaha is currently my preferred AV receiver mass-market brand. The amps have enough about them to be able to resolve the difference between difference sources and connections and amp modes very easily. It extends to being able to show how poor quality freebie interconnects mangle the sound. The biggest difference is simple switching to Pure Direct mode. That's night and day as far as a decent music source goes. I'd expect to be able to hear that kind of difference with decent speakers (Zensors) and perhaps less so with small sub/sat systems. Are you not hearing that with the Sony?

 

[lucid]

Which is why I stated you may end up with two levels. My reply was based on what he has and it's current ability.

As for letting the AV control volume, then it sort of becomes mute, as the pre-amp stage of the slightly musically inferior AV amp will be detrimental in comparison to the stereo amp's pre out stage.
If that is not an issue, ditch the Arcam stereo amp, it's power amp stage is not enough to dictate it's use controlled by an AV amp of similar specification and distortion yet with higher wattage and current ability.

Or sell both and try to find a more musical AV amp? Though the Sony was well reviewed for music replay.

Personally whatever mixed combo ends up in situ will be a compromise anyway. What is more important, music or movies, whatever one is chosen is usually what I would advise as priority. If the majority of source material is MP3 then an AV amp is more than adequate, most pop related music downloads and CD's are too. Vinyl, well most new vinyl and re-issues are not all that great, as they use digital not analogue at the cutting stages anyway. Most people who prioritize vinyl would not be sharing it in an AV configuration.

It's the same with using an AV amp as a processor, sure you can add a power amp, but A, most lack the ability of a similar priced stereo, and B, you end up with two different amplification technologies/topologies, with two out of five speakers usually at slight odds. An AV processor does not do level correction on the fly.

Many moons ago I ran a Yamaha E800 using Classe Audio power amp for the main stereo chanel, do you think that processors amplification sounded the same? I ended up adding a second Classe and dropping the center chanel.

The OP has a 50w per chanel Arcam amplifier with a 160w per chanel Sony AV amp. Their gain/input sensitivities may well be different also, so the more volume he adds the louder one may get over the other. Usually not a huge difference, but possibly as detrimental as using an AV amp in place of a stereo amp for music to some ears possibly. Such as anyone who gets peeved at multi chanel speaker packages where the center sounds slightly different from the front which sound different to the rears due to them all being different sizes with different drivers with different sensitivity and load.

I could be wrong though, maybe the OP perceives a huge difference between the Arcam and Sony amplifiers when used with the same stereo source and speakers.

If the goal is to integrate Hi- Fi and AV properly then an AV Receiver without pre-outs is the obvious roadblock. Using tape-in/out doesn't solve that. Having to adjust both the Hi-Fi amp volume and AV and volume each and every time there's a volume adjustment is both a colossal PITA and it messes up the sound balance far more than any minor difference in input gain linearity.

 

[kidloco]

If the goal is to integrate Hi- Fi and AV properly then an AV Receiver without pre-outs is the obvious roadblock. Using tape-in/out doesn't solve that. Having to adjust both the Hi-Fi amp volume and AV and volume each and every time there's a volume adjustment is both a colossal PITA and it messes up the sound balance far more than any minor difference in input gain linearity.

This. I tried this for a while, I really wanted to have the best of both. Roksan stereo amp for music, Yamaha AV amp for movies. Day to day it just became a right royal pain in the bum.

I then looked at so called musical av amps. Ended up buying an Arcam av amp. Now it was far more musical then the other 10 amps id heard, but it was still miles away from the Roksan for stereo. It was however easy to live with, a one box solution that sounded OK.

The Arcam went pop after last year , I replaced it with a Marantz unit. So much better then the Arcam for movies, but music was dull again.

I gave up in the end and built a dedicated stereo system in a spare room.

 

[lucid]

As for letting the AV control volume, then it sort of becomes mute, as the pre-amp stage of the slightly musically inferior AV amp will be detrimental in comparison to the stereo amp's pre out stage.
If that is not an issue, ditch the Arcam stereo amp, it's power amp stage is not enough to dictate it's use controlled by an AV amp of similar specification and distortion yet with higher wattage and current ability.

It's not entirely clear from what you've written, but it reads as if you're thinking that the Hi-Fi amp is upstream of the AV receiver. That's not really of much value when trying to integrate Hi-Fi and AV.

While using the A19 pre-outs will certainly provide a signal to an AV receiver (AVR), it's of no use with any digital or HDMI source. That's a pretty big handicap when so many of our sources use digital in one form or another. Accepting that it is one way of wiring up the DN1040 and A19, it has too many shortcomings to be of any value.

If that is not an issue, ditch the Arcam stereo amp, it's power amp stage is not enough to dictate it's use controlled by an AV amp of similar specification and distortion yet with higher wattage and current ability.

It's a moot point given that the Sony doesn't have pre-outs or tape-outs (not that they'd work anyway since so few receivers decode bitstream and then reconvert it to analogue 2 channel), and that the A19 to 1050 link has other issues; but the amp's performances in terms of volume delivery won't be as far apart at the specs might suggest. The large toroidal transformer and bigger power supply reserve capacitors in the Arcam will level the playing field. This isn't something that can be seen directly from the specs, but it is something I've often found in real world applications.

Personally whatever mixed combo ends up in situ will be a compromise anyway.

Here I must strongly disagree.

The whole point of using an AVR with pre-outs in to a Hi-Fi amp is exactly because it doesn't compromise the Hi-Fi performance, and in some respects, it enhances the AV performance too.

In the end it still comes back to the roadblock of the AVR not having pre-outs. Unless it's changed then the only practical solution is a speaker switch box which was 3t3P's original thought. I have to say though, the idea of adding something like that to a good quality Hi-Fi system fills me with horror. The thought of having unterminated speaker cable causing signal reflections, or saddling the amp with an additional set of resistance and capacitance to try to deal with those reflections seems to me to be a backwards step and hardly worthy of the goal for untainted Hi-Fi performance.

 

[TALON1973]

AH .... as soon as I saw this Topic it reminded me of when I was using the Yamaha dsp-e800 3 channel amp/processor . great days

 

[sastusbulbas]

It's a moot point given that the Sony doesn't have pre-outs or tape-outs .

In the end it still comes back to the roadblock of the AVR not having pre-outs. Unless it's changed then the only practical solution is a speaker switch box which was 3t3P's original thought. I have to say though, the idea of adding something like that to a good quality Hi-Fi system fills me with horror. The thought of having unterminated speaker cable causing signal reflections, or saddling the amp with an additional set of resistance and capacitance to try to deal with those reflections seems to me to be a backwards step and hardly worthy of the goal for untainted Hi-Fi performance.

The Sony has a Zone 2 output. I thought that may have been of use, as I said previous, if the OP did not mind two volume controls. because he could simply connect the Sony Zone 2 output to the AV input of the Arcam like any other source and give it a try. https://us.en.kb.sony.com/app/answe...what-is-the-zone-2-feature-and-how-to-use-it?

Not sure about speaker boxes and amps being saddled with extra signal reflections, resistance, or capitance, by having them in circuit, I would have thought such a box would be cutting the signal to either one speaker cable or the other, not allowing two different cables full connection.

As for reflections? hmmm. Resistance and capacitance, on a few meters of home cable with those ancillaries?

It's been a while since I was looking at any audio stuff as I gave up years ago, too much subjective opinion for the most part, in particular with average equipment in average homes. At the end of the day, we have an OP wondering of mixing current components, not buying new amplifiers, or needing to know the vagaries of change and circumstance based on audio myth.

He either plugs the zone 2 stereo output from the Sony into the Arcam (which only works with analogue connected sources), or buys a speaker switch box, which if properly made will not add any issues nor should be massively detrimental to the owners listening experience. If that is not suitable, he tries living with his current AV amp for music and movies, and if that is not good enough, then his speakers are good enough to justify a much more costly AV amp, which will usually be of lesser sound quality than an equally priced stereo amp for stereo replay.

Its two amplifiers which upon specification are not a world apart, the difference is there, but if one is being used as a control pre, the audio quality viagaries of that equipment when split into mixed pre and power stages may not be big enough to justify.


The Arcam may be the better stereo choice, but the Sony gets good write ups on it's musicality, that does not make it worse or better than the Arcam, but a good option if the user finds little to discern between them with standard CD format audio files. certainly something to try before scare mongering or worrying about two volume controls, and speaker switching boxes. Though he would actually need two active speaker outputs into one box that spits to either A or B single output with no common negative connection.

He could always get someone to sit behind a curtain, playing one, then the other, in an A-B comparison to see how big a difference he hears.
Just run dual mono into each amp and have each model drive a single Ikon 6 speaker which are side by side.

Horror? The majority of AVR pre outs are exactly that in a decent stereo system, and just as backward as any switch boxes and the like. As for inductance, capacitance, resistance, cable induced reflections, here we now add the horror of audiophool foo which has no place in budget to mid range audio ancillaries.

 

[lucid]

The Sony has a Zone 2 output. I thought that may have been of use, as I said previous, if the OP did not mind two volume controls. because he could simply connect the Sony Zone 2 output to the AV input of the Arcam like any other source and give it a try. https://us.en.kb.sony.com/app/answe...what-is-the-zone-2-feature-and-how-to-use-it?

It's pretty standard for Zone 2 to only work with analogue sources, so that makes it useless for HDMI, coax and optical sources. If you read that page you liked to, it actually mentions that same point in the first of the notes.

The Arcam may be the better stereo choice, but the Sony gets good write ups on it's musicality, that does not make it worse or better than the Arcam, but a good option if the user finds little to discern between them with standard CD format audio files.

The Sonny does indeed get good write-ups for musicality. What's missing from the reviews though is the context for that assessment: Good in relation to Hi-Fi amps or good in relation to other AV receivers. As you can appreciate, there's a difference.

Some of that difference may well be subjective. Bear in mind though that 3t3P already said he'd(?) tried the Sony with the Zensor floor-standers and found the sound 'underwhelming'. That's possibly in comparison to the A19 in to the larger Ikon floor-standers, and we haven't yet heard from 3t3P what exactly was so underwhelming about the Sony/Zensor combo.

He either plugs the zone 2 stereo output from the Sony into the Arcam (which only works with analogue connected sources), or buys a speaker switch box, which if properly made will not add any issues nor should be massively detrimental to the owners listening experience.

Well, we've already discussed the options. The speaker box is the only solution if changing the AV receiver isn't an option. However, as I said before, it's at odds with the goal of good quality stereo where the AV receiver doesn't intrude. In short, why bother going to all the trouble of segregating Hi-Fi and AV then wreck it with a speaker switching box? After all, you wouldn't expect there to be a speaker switch box in line when going to a Hi-Fi dem, and for good reason.

If that is not suitable, he tries living with his current AV amp for music and movies, and if that is not good enough, then his speakers are good enough to justify a much more costly AV amp, which will usually be of lesser sound quality than an equally priced stereo amp for stereo replay.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make as all the options have already been covered.

Its two amplifiers which upon specification are not a world apart, the difference is there, but if one is being used as a control pre, the audio quality viagaries of that equipment when split into mixed pre and power stages may not be big enough to justify.

Your language is hard to follow here.

You seem to be coming back to the idea that one device leads the other in all circumstances. That's not the case; or certainly not when AV and Hi-Fi are joined as has been suggested using the AV receiver's pre-outs. Hi-Fi sources go exclusively through the Hi-Fi amp, untainted by AV in any way. It's only when using the AV receiver to decode and process AV sources that the signal passes from receiver to 2 channel amp. As such, the sound will be as good as it can ever be in 2 channel Hi-Fi mode since it doesn't touch the AV signal chain at all; and AV is as good or slightly better than it would be normally thanks to the Hi-Fi amp doing some of the heavy lifting as far as driving the front L&R is concerned.

He could always get someone to sit behind a curtain, playing one, then the other, in an A-B comparison to see how big a difference he hears.
Just run dual mono into each amp and have each model drive a single Ikon 6 speaker which are side by side.

Horror? The majority of AVR pre outs are exactly that in a decent stereo system, and just as backward as any switch boxes and the like. As for inductance, capacitance, resistance, cable induced reflections, here we now add the horror of audiophool foo which has no place in budget to mid range audio ancillaries.

Again your language is hard to follow, especially the BIB.

 

[3t3P]

woah you guys have been busy!

In terms of the zensors on the Sony 1040 in Pure Direct mode being underwhelming, it was by no means bad, it just sounded very similar to the Family Marantz Amp and Marantz CD system (some copper anniversary addition) with entry level KEF co-axial floorstanders.

In fact I swapped out the Zensors into the Marantz amp and played Baker street vs the KEFs (in the same room). The KEFs are bloody good still to be fair!

I've heard the Linn £50k speaker/streamer setup playing Clapton and I auditioned Focal 926's at £2k+ a pair and many other £1k/pair floorstanders.

If the Linn, to me, is super-hi-fi, the Focals sound like hi-fi, they had detail in the bass, good integration and musicality across the range. I really liked them but total system cost to do them justice went a bit crazy.

The Ikons sound like Upper Mid-fi, bordering on Hi-Fi, just needs that bass articulation the focals had. In the end the combined system value to performance was good so I went for them.

Lucid gets what I want to do, drive the front left and right channels using the A19 via pre-out from the AV reveiver.
The AV receiver running LFE/BASS, Centre and rear speakers only.

I talked of a switch box in the end to enable me to have both systems occupy the same space if I had to, without any true integration. The switch box just preventing necessity of swapping speaker cables around!

I have read such boxes should have no smearing of signal paths mid-switch, do well designed switches like this exist?

The 1040 may have to stay with the Zensor system now.
So have to lump cash on a new AV receiver.
Likely the 1050 by Sony! From what I can read on the spec blurb it does have pre outs this time.

Even if it does though, it appears the A19 doesn't have AV passthrough? So volume matching is still a problem?

 

[lucid]

Even if it does though, it appears the A19 doesn't have AV passthrough? So volume matching is still a problem?

Not really a problem at all.

AV Passthrough simply bypasses the part of the pre-amp that routes through the volume control. The result is that the signal goes in to the pre-amp at a point where it's treated as fixed gain. The exact same would be true if the volume were set to a specific point equal to that gain. In fact, it doesn't have to be that exact point at all. It simply needs to be set to a point that is repeatable. That could be 11 o'clock on the dial, or 44 on an arbitrary volume scale, or -22dB on a referenced scale, just so long as that number is remembered as the AV level and used each time the A19 is designated as the power amp for AV use.

Whatever the number happens to be is arrived at using the set-up procedure I gave in my first post. This of course presumes that the AVR has pre-outs.

 

[GoRedwings19]

I tend to find sony av amps on the cleaner/brighter side of things. While stuff like Arcam and Marantz on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Is there any av amp which can do music convincingly? I am pretty certain that the high end arcam av amp would not work well in my setup and for that matter marantz either.

Lucid>I have question for you if you have the time. I know you specialise in teh AV market but was wondering do you get to deal with a lot of hi fi based setups as well as I have a particular question for you regarding that nature.

 

[lucid]

ARCAM, Anthem, Yamaha: For AV products they can all make a decent fist of music at various levels.

GoRedWings19> Yes.