Ceiling Speaker Amplifier

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Just moved into a house that has ceiling speakers, the setup is:

Two speakers in the kitchen
One in the Lounge
One in the master bathroom
One in the master bedroom

I have no idea where to start with finding out the specifications of the speakers or what Amp to buy, or how to connect it up. All of the speaker cables currently end in a wardrobe in the spare room which has ample power sockets available. I already have an Amazon Echo in the kitchen, and one in the Lounge. My aim is to use my spare Echo Dot to provide an input to a single amp powering all of the speakers, only using them if I want music throughout the entire house. For other non-house party occasions I'll just use the Echos.

So, where do I start? Thanks in advance!
 
After much fun working out how to get it down I've discovered it's some sort of self contained unit with the following information
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Pyle isn't a high-end brand, but as long as you're just looking for background music then they'll be okay.

Unless you fancy springing the best part of a grand on a proper multiroom multichannel amp then what I would suggest is wiring everything mono. This includes the speaker pair in the kitchen.

At a guess, the previous house owner was working on a tight budget. Five speakers could be a coincidence that it matches the number of channels on an AV Receiver - its the cheapest way to power a multiroom system - and with thw right choice of used AV receiver you could gradually migrate from running all the speakers together, to eventually having independent sources and volume control per room.

I'll post more later.
 
Pyle isn't a high-end brand, but as long as you're just looking for background music then they'll be okay.

Unless you fancy springing the best part of a grand on a proper multiroom multichannel amp then what I would suggest is wiring everything mono. This includes the speaker pair in the kitchen.

At a guess, the previous house owner was working on a tight budget. Five speakers could be a coincidence that it matches the number of channels on an AV Receiver - its the cheapest way to power a multiroom system - and with thw right choice of used AV receiver you could gradually migrate from running all the speakers together, to eventually having independent sources and volume control per room.

I'll post more later.
Cheers for the starter, I know the previous owner (not necessarily the original installer) had a job lot of Apple Music/airplay things powering lots of individual amps. I just need to know the steps to take to have all 5 speakers playing in mono off the same input (preferably without having to buy more echo dots!) Would rather not have to buy loads more hardware just to get going.
 
Before we continue talking about hardware, I think it's important that you have a think about the way a proper multiroom music system works. It'll help you understand the limits of what you can do on a tight budget, and it'll help you plan a path so that you don't waste time and money buying things that are going to be no help further down the road.

Any real multiroom system can do the following basic functions:

* Allow 'per room' volume control
* Provide a way to group rooms together to form zones e.g. master bed + master bathroom become a zone
* Allow 'per zone' volume control (with the ability to still adjust the rooms to get the right sound balance across a zone)
* Provide a way to group all rooms/zones together as 'whole house'
* Allow 'whole house' volume control with the ability to trim the volume in each room for sound balance

* Make it possible to play any of the music sources in any individual room or grouped zone and control that independently of the rest of rooms/zones
* Play one source throughout the entire house (Party Mode)


If you went out tomorrow and bought a true 12 channel multiroom power amp then you still wouldn't be able to all the zone selection/grouping and volume control, and that's because a lot of the functionality comes from the source devices. Your system would be based on a single source player. In essence then, whatever you do based on a single source player, you're always going to be working in Party Mode until you add more players. That's fine so long as you accept that playing internet radio or Spotify in the kitchen means it's also going to be playing in the lounge and bedroom and bathroom at the same time.

The next thing to consider is the size of any amp and the heat it'll generate. There's some electronics/physics to factor in here.

The main consideration is power loss due to the thickness (or thinness, if you prefer) of the speaker cables. Put simply, fat, pure-copper speaker cables pass more of the Wattage generated at the amp end. Couple them with high efficiency speakers (88-90dB/W/m) to make the most of the available power.

Speaker cables tend to come in several nominal sizes. For home cinema and multiroom audio applications, 4mm is about as thick as is generally used. Then the sizes range down in steps from 2.5mm, 1.5mm, 1.0mm and 0.75mm. The amount of power loss is proportional to cable length, and inversely proportional to thickness. If we say that you have an amp capable of generating 30W per channel, and you put that down 50m of copper cable, then with the 4mm stuff you'd only lose 10% of the power. Drop down to a 2.5mm cable and the losses increase to a shade over 15%. At 1.5mm the losses jump up to 25%. That means our 30W of power ends up at roughly 22W when it reaches the speaker.

These are figures for a solid copper cable, but not every DIY or budget install uses solid copper. Some people buy copper coated aluminium cables (CCA) because they're much cheaper. Some are aware they're buying something inferior. Other times they're not. Aluminium is a much poorer electrical conductor. The thin coating of copper anodised on the surface does nothing to change this. Some web sellers try to play the pseudo-science card and talk about skin effect. It doesn't have any benefit until the signal frequency goes way above the audio range. The bottom line is that CCA cables lose an additional 40% of the power compared to solid copper. Our 22W going through a 1.5mm copper cable becomes just 13W when travelling via CCA. That means well over half the power is lost.

This is why you can't get away with low-powered cheap T amps to drive multiroom speakers. They don't have enough power to start with to cope with the cable losses, especially if CCA cable is involved.

Next, speaker efficiency. Pyle doesn't quote a dB/W/m figure. That means one thing; the speakers aren't that efficient. Again then, you'll need plenty of power in the amp to cope with the speaker's lack of efficiency.


What you're looking for then is a AV receiver or AV amp with a 5.1ch/6.1ch/7.1ch input and plenty of balls. Some suggestions include the Denon 38xx and higher series, Pioneer AV amps (VSX-AX5i, VSX-AX10, SC-LX series), bigger Yamaha AV receivers RX-V7xx series and above, and the RX-A-series AV amps (some of the older 4xx and 5xx series might also fit the bill as they have strong power supplies and MCH inputs), Marantz, some Sonys e.g. STR-DA1200. I would avoid Onkyos as they have a bit of a reputation for being fragile. Ditto ARCAM plus they go for a small premium die to the Hi-Fi roots, and that's not really needed here. Try to keep the amp purchase under £100 if possible.

You don't need HDMI, but I wouldn't rule out anything with HDMI inputs as long as the price is right. There's a Denon 3808 on Ebay right now which would tick a few boxes. A MCH output isn't required. All you really need is MCH IN, plenty of raw power (TIP: Look at the user manual. Take the mains power consumption figure. Knock off 10% and then divide by the number of speaker channels to get a rough idea of the real power output. e.g. the 3808 eats around 860W according to the Yank specs. 860 x 0.9 = 774W It's a 7.1 channel receiver, so divide by 7. This gives around 110W/ch)


How you'll hook up and run is like this. Buy a Monocor stereo to mono line level converter plus whatever jack-to-phono and phono-to-phono cables you need. Connect the Dot to the Monocor, then the Monocor to one of the stero inputs on the receiver. (You'll use MCH once you add more Dots). Hook up a small TV to the monitor out on the amp/receiver. You'll need this for the On Screen Display to do the set-up. Reset all the speaker channels to 0dB or do a system reset. If required, do an input allocation. Connect the speakers. Set the amp/receiver to All Channel Stereo. (Once you've finished doing the settings, and you're happy with the levels of two kitchen speakers and the bathroom vs bedroom, then the TV can be disconnected.)

What you have now is the Dot playing everywhere, in mono. Set the general speaker level with the AV amp/receiver, and then use the Dot's volume control for day-to-day adjustment.


When you're ready, buy two more Dots and two more Monacors. This is where you'll swap over to the MCH input. The Dot for the kitchen goes to say the front L&R connections (make sure the speaker outputs follow suit.) Dot for the lounge goes to center. Dot for the bedroom & bathroom goes to Surround L & Surround right. Change the amp to the MCH input. Balance the speakers again if required. The MCH input turns the AV amp/receiver in to a sort of multichannel power amp. Now each Dot can run independently. This means you have 3 zones: Kitchen (2x speakers in mono - or you could go stereo there without the Monocor in-line), Lounge (1x speaker mono), Master bed & bathroom (2x speakers in mono).

That's you up and running. The rest of running the system is down to how well the Dots run as multiroom music sources.
 
For what its worth, I like using the Sonos Kit as it provides an easy setup and a whole host of different listening options. The sonos connect with amp built in is around £500 which may be a little over budget. You'd need one for every "zone" or room you're setting up.
 
@lucid gives great advice!

I'd buy a second hand AV amp. If you buy an old powerhouse from a decent manufacturer it might even have the option to do more than one zone for volume/input control. This will most likely be the cheapest way to get everything set up. It would indeed be best to input everything in mono and then let the amp run in all channel mode - sounds like you've got the solution to that above. The use of the multichannel inputs and echo dots is really smart and I hadn't thought of that for multiple zones!

The only caveat to the above would be the lack of wifi/app control of amplifier volume. The echo dots would provide a solution, but the volume control wouldn't be ideal.
 
A suggestion from me as I've used a few in the past with a RaspberyPi and Softsqueeze to make a simple cheap Squeezebox with a couple of old Mordaunt Short speakers, but the Linn Knekt room amp, they can be picked up relatively cheaply. Would be interested to know what @lucid thinks of these as I've found them to be great little things. Not hugely powerful but certainly enough for multiroom.

Edit; these amps require the controller board disconnecting inside otherwise they are limited to 50% power as they are designed to be used in a Linn multiroom setup. Simple enough job though, open it up and unplug a wire. Obviously being a power amp it does need a volume control throwing into the mix, which is where an AV amp with multiroom would be handy for different zones.
 
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A suggestion from me as I've used a few in the past with a RaspberyPi and Softsqueeze to make a simple cheap Squeezebox with a couple of old Mordaunt Short speakers, but the Linn Knekt room amp, they can be picked up relatively cheaply. Would be interested to know what @lucid thinks of these as I've found them to be great little things. Not hugely powerful but certainly enough for multiroom.
Interesting idea. Thanks :)

The Knekt is an SMPS-based device, yes? If so, it might sound a bit brighter and bass light compared to an LK or Majik which have the toroidal transformers.I wonder though how it would compare against an AV receiver being used by the 5.1 ch inputs?
 
The Knekt can sound bright so good speaker choice is a must. They are handy though because of the compact nature of them. Unfortunately I'm not sure on the transformer side of things so I can't really comment on that, I'm just not really a fan of long speaker cables, and I've found using an AV amp for multi room can limit the number of speakers driven in the main room setup.

I'm sort of considering changing my main setup as that can sound a bit bright given the wrong music. - Linn Keilidh & Centrik in a custom Aktiv setup built into an Audiolab case and powered by a couple of Tag 5x100 (modified to be 4x100).
 
The Knekt can sound bright so good speaker choice is a must. They are handy though because of the compact nature of them. Unfortunately I'm not sure on the transformer side of things so I can't really comment on that, I'm just not really a fan of long speaker cables, and I've found using an AV amp for multi room can limit the number of speakers driven in the main room setup.

I'm sort of considering changing my main setup as that can sound a bit bright given the wrong music. - Linn Keilidh & Centrik in a custom Aktiv setup built into an Audiolab case and powered by a couple of Tag 5x100 (modified to be 4x100).

For Hi-fi use, long speaker cables aren't ideal. It's slightly different though - or a different set of acceptable compromises - for multiroom audio. Without the benefit of balanced line outputs and inputs, and given that below Linn budgets, folk generally don't plan or want to have additional electronics in-room for each zone, then transmission over speaker cable of a suitable thickness works well enough.

I take your point about using limiting the main room speaker choices by using an AaV amp to drive multiroom speakers. The application in this thread though is different. The AV amp or receiver in question would be doing nothing more than driving the in-ceiling speakers.
 
A slight downer on the Echo dot plan - the phono output sucks! I've just invested in another dot to connect to my AV amp because for some reason it can't seem to hold a bluetooth pairing. Spotify connect straight from the amp is miles better! It's a real shame that there's no digital output on the dot. Terrible bright treble with bass which is totally lost. Goddamn it it's cool to control it by voice though!
 
Yep, that would work. It has a multichannel input. Denon call it EXT IN. Same thing, different name.

Power wise, if you stick to 5 channels (5 mono speakers) then you'll have roughly 50W per channel to play with at 8 Ohms. That should be enough to cope with some cable losses and still end up with a reasonable amount of power at the speakers.

You'll need to use either the front panel display or the Monitor Out connection (via the composite video, yellow phono RCA socket) to get the amp set up and tweaked. Just make sure you have a small TV with the same kind of yellow socket on for the connection. It only needs to be rigged up temporarily, but it will make life a lot easier doing the set-up with the monitor display rather than the front panel.
 
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