Cheap & nasty mini Itx spec?

TCabot

TCabot

TCabot

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12 Apr 2016
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27
Hi Folks,

After some thinking and with a bit of advice from @Emlyn_Dewar, I think I'm starting to get my head round the mini-ITX air-cooled mini PC Idea.
I haven't touched PC hardware for decades, so would appreciate some of your advice.
For starters, I'd like to put together a shoestring budget box, just as proof of concept & try to make full use of discounts on Aliexpress or buy used parts on ebay.

The build spec that I came up with is as follows:

- Use: home desktop use running a light version of linux. Vector graphics editing, a bit of audio editing, occasional Arduino coding and some very basic FreeCAD. Box being built with a view of <12yo kids gaming in the next few years (steam I guess, given it's a linux), and some console emulation. Maybe some chess database work.
- CPU: Ryzen 5600G
- Case: RGEEK L65S (197mm*197mm*65mm)
Alternatively, there's a taller model RGEEK TA80 (197mm*197mm*80mm) - not sure if the extra height is worth it and makes a big difference (to cooling or component placement)?
- Motherboard: B550 mini ITX. Probably whatever's going cheap on aliexpress on 11.11.
- 2 nvme drives - it is my understanding that a second drive can be mounted with a pcie to nvme m2 adapter. And I'm not using the gpu slot anyway.
- Fan: Thermalright AXP-90 X36 seems to be the best cheapo solution, but I'm considering Metalfish Z-39 too.
- 16GB DDR4 RAM.

I am really stuck with the PSU choice. I guess I'm feeding either a 90W or a 120W 12v external brick into the box and putting it through either a tiny pico jobbie
e.g. Small
Or a larger board
e.g. Larger

What would be your recommendation for the wattage and what's the benefit (if any) of the larger board?
Also with nvme drives, do they need extra cooling? e.g. fan+heatsink

Any other components that I missed out? Recommendations to avoid anythign like plague?

Thank you.
 
Following this as ive been looking at building an itx after many years of laptop as i dont have enough space for a full blown pc and do a little gaming. im looking at either a minisforum prebuild with the dock you can use a gpu on.

Other option is build my own and use the low profile gigabyte 4060

Have you checked youtube as lots of build videos on there for itx systems
 
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There must be something wrong with my brains, as I'm hopeless when it comes to processing information from a video. I can read manuals, guides & articles all day long, but youtube just doesn't do it for me at all.
My current problem is that I really don't need any significant GPU power right now. I expect that I'll need some in 2-3 years. A 5600G build will be very fast for my current needs and might stay relevant a few years down the line.

Alternative thinking was to use the likes of a Metalfish S3, put a mini-ITX board into it with a powerful non-gpu CPU and some really cheap (£40) GPU from years ago and upgrade it a few years down the line as and when I need it. I haven't tried speccing it yet.

Also, I'm a gambler. I like Chinese stuff. And on 11.11 you tend to get it half price. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but I just love the adrenaline rush I get when I open a parcel with some goodies from a manufacturer with an unpronounceable name. But there's a difference between being an idiot gambler and just being an idiot - I'm not going to buy rebranded Chinese recycled ex-mining GPUs for example!
 
TCabot said:
I am really stuck with the PSU choice. I guess I'm feeding either a 90W or a 120W 12v external brick into the box and putting it through either a tiny pico jobbie
e.g. Small
Or a larger board
e.g. Larger

What would be your recommendation for the wattage and what's the benefit (if any) of the larger board?
Click to expand...
Not an expert on PicoPSUs, but from what I'm aware the most troublesome moment can be booting, since once the PC is up and running you can use the c-states, eco mode and all that fancy stuffs to ensure you stay within a comfortable power envelope. The rule of thumb is: get enough, because if you can't boot the darn thing properly that's not going to be a fun time.

Keep in mind that ITX has two formats: there's the regular one that has the ATX 20/24 pin and the thin one that goes out the back I/O with the plug for a laptop-style brick.

In terms of the PCBs themselves with PicoPSUs: I don't know, but since these are very rudimentary, you might find that there's a difference in their features.

TCabot said:
Also with nvme drives, do they need extra cooling? e.g. fan+heatsink
Click to expand...
Not normally, no, but with compact devices airflow can be limited, so if you're hammering the drive it may be necessary. TPU do some thermal testing in their reviews.

By the way, if you're considering the 5600G I'd also consider the 8500G. It has a much newer GPU than the 5600G.
 
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@TCabot are you in China? I only ever heard about 11.11 sales when I moved here. :D

5600G is still a pretty great chip when paired with reasonable DDR4. The 8600G would be he preferable choice, but I just don't think the price makes the 8000 series APUs a reasonable option, outside of the mini-PCs.
You could get a case like the SKTC A09, that is very small, but takes a flex ATX PSU, if you weren't wanting to go the pico PSU route. I've never went this way, so no recommendations for one!
 
Never been to China (it's on my bucket list though). Have a few friends from there who introduced me to the 11.11 concept.

SKTC A09 - sounds great! Picos make me somewhat nervous. A pico looks like the weakest link in the whole build, and if it goes, it will likely take the rest of the build with it. A09 is not much bigger than pico-based cases but it's smaller than GPU-equipped boxes like the S3. And I can put a bit more cash towards a decent PSU.
What max wattage do I need? Will a 450W "be quiet" from OC suffice?
 
I'm not really sure about those flex ATX PSUs, I have a cheap 300w no-name one that was bundled with an SKTC A10 and it's alright. Fan could be quieter, but I can't hear it from the distance the box is at. Be Quiet are a great brand though, so I wouldn't worry about their offerings if they have a suitable offering. You could even go a bit lower wattage too, if you're not going to be running a dedicated GPU.
FSP also worth a look for this PSU size.
 
Right, Flex-ATX. Certainly not the same thing a SFX. I was confused for a moment.
Looks like there are quite a few used 250-270W boxes goind for peanuts on ebay. Not enough wattage?
Some 350W but not many higher than that.

Are server PSUs any different from regular PSUs? Say, ones from a Dell PowerEdge R210 rack?
 
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Looks like server PSUs are fine for the job.
I just can't see how a 5600G system can go over 350W... If I had a separate GPU drawing 200W, then the total for the build could approach 350, but for an APU 350 seems to have plenty of headroom.

Motherboard wise, at the moment, there's only JGINYUE B550i Gaming, JGINYUE B450 and Used :confused:ASRock X370 that support 5600G in mini-ITX format on Aliexpress. Reading online reviews, they seem to be decent value for money, but:
Right now I'm looking at £67 delivered + wifi card, let's call it £70. A Gigabyte A520I is selling in the UK for £97 and is presumably better quality with better support and warranty. Right now the price difference does not go in favour a gamble on Ali.

Is there much point in buying 32GB of RAM instead of 16GB?
 
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TCabot said:
Looks like server PSUs are fine for the job.
I just can't see how a 5600G system can go over 350W... If I had a separate GPU drawing 200W, then the total for the build could approach 350, but for an APU 350 seems to have plenty of headroom.

Motherboard wise, at the moment, there's only JGINYUE B550i Gaming, JGINYUE B450 and Used :confused:ASRock X370 that support 5600G in mini-ITX format on Aliexpress. Reading online reviews, they seem to be decent value for money, but:
Right now I'm looking at £67 delivered + wifi card, let's call it £70. A Gigabyte A520I is selling in the UK for £97 and is presumably better quality with better support and warranty. Right now the price difference does not go in favour a gamble on Ali.

Is there much point in buying 32GB of RAM instead of 16GB?
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I feel like if you shopped about, you would get something for less motherboard wise, all be it no wifi but my msi A520 was about £50! ran nicely with my 5600g, before i downgraded it as was not using it for gaming. I think I got it from here and the B grade stuff they sell. but they are not pricey anyway.
 
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£50 will certainly help keep me in the budget, but are you talking micro-ATX as opposed to ITX size? ITX seems to be harder to come by and twice the price.
 
@bigjonnyauk
A09 case APU build example:

Log - Finally found a case/SKTC A09 3.8L for my Mini-ITX APU-Builds/no graphics card!

My previous two Mini-ITX builds APU-Builds (listed below) had wasted case space. Just to be clear; APU-Builds have no graphics card. I am not interested in the latest/greatest Frames per second GPU's therefore, the built-in Graphics on the CPU chip works just fine for my web browsing, pictures...
smallformfactor.net smallformfactor.net

I found it while I was researching Delta flex-ATX PSUs, but the whole build is very close to what I have in mind.
 
TCabot said:
Is there much point in buying 32GB of RAM instead of 16GB?
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Would be easy to say "no" to that, but at the same time, the price of DDR4 is pretty low right now. It might be worth just going 32GB now, and then you'd never need to worry about it ever. You can leave memory allocation on auto for the GPU, but some gaming benchmarks have shown benefits by manually setting a higher amount to the GPU.

Server PSUs may be fine, but you'd want to know what the fan speed was at. Rack-mount servers not exactly know for their silence.:D
I know many have swapped out their Flex ATX PSU fan for a 40mm Noctua. Doesn't seem necessary in my case, but if I had it on the desk, I probably would look in to it.. :D
 
I was hoping to keep the whole build under £200 :p. But it's easy to double that budget if I'm going for all the "could haves". At the end of the day it's all slightly old tech and it does not make too much sense to put a lot of cash towards it. I read that 5600G can be picky with what RAMs it will work, so I'll probably fork out the cash for corsair vengeance LPX. They seem to come in different frequencies as well as different sizes :eek:

Pulled the trigger on the CPU fan. AXP90 X36. £14.50 delivered from Amazon. Delivered next day. Looking good. Don't think I could get it any cheaper.

Also pulled the trigger on the 350W Delta PSU. Seems to be well-reviewed in the write-up that I linked to. It won't accept a 20mm fan, so not a good candidate for Noctua mod, but apparently the thing runs dead silent unless you're really pushing it, in which case it fires up at full speed (but keeps things cool with a lot of airflow). Sounds fine to me.
There were a couple kicking on ebay for £20, but they were caked with dust. I went for £35 delivered, with the seller claiming that it was removed from a brand new server.

Used 5600G seem to be going for about £80 on ebay UK. Cheapest one on Ali was £43 taxed & delivered, supposedly brand new, shipped from Turkey from a seller with 0 feedback. I might be a daft gambler, but I'm not this daft. Next best option was £64 discounted to £54 with Alicoins (loyalty customer discounts for the uninitiated) from a seller with 100% feedback rating and 90-day free returns policy. I pulled the trigger and I'm in for a couple weeks of chewing my seat with my cheeks, waiting for it to arrive to see if it's a dud.

Ali B350i-plus motherboards are about to go on sale for £55 new. I doubt that they will go much lower on 11.11... Tempting to pull the trigger soon. Also a 90-day free returns option.

Real problems will be if my cheap hobo-PC build does not post. Will be hard to figure out which one of the low quality parts is not cooperating:(
 
TCabot said:
Ali B350i-plus motherboards are about to go on sale for £55 new. I doubt that they will go much lower on 11.11... Tempting to pull the trigger soon. Also a 90-day free returns option.

Real problems will be if my cheap hobo-PC build does not post. Will be hard to figure out which one of the low quality parts is not cooperating:(
Click to expand...
Do these have the bios updated?
 
How much more would you be spending on a B450i equivalent motherboard? Jginyue, machinist and the likes aren't a problem for me, but I have had issues running 3200MHz memory on B350, whereas the same chip in a B450 was fine. For the 5600G, you really need to be running the memory at 3200MHz (or higher) to keep performance up.
 
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Only about a fiver difference between B550i gaming and B350i.
It now looks like I might get 550 for about £50 or 350 for £45 in the end, once all discounts are added up. That's cheap enough for me to take a gamble.

How are you finding jginguye bios updates? Or is it the classic case of "don't fix it if it ain't broke", if it works, it works?

In regard to RAM - thank you very much, wasn't aware of that! You've got to remember that last time I did anything to PC hardware was when ascii dungeon crawlers were still in vogue.
Any point going for 3600hz for a couple extra £ ? Or will it be too hot for the small box if I start pushing it?

Also, has there been any development in wifi cards in the last 20 years or so?:cry:
If I have a spare PCIE card from about 2004 and the motherboard has a pcie wifi slot, can I just plug & play, or has there been a 101 standards introduced in the meantime?

Am I likely to need extra cables, etc? Or do parts tend to come with all the necessary connections?
 
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@bigjonnyauk
Found a bigger brother of the A09: A10.

A10 7.3L M-ATX Chassis
Slightly bigger version for mini-ATX that seems to have the space for a small gpu and should be able to house a more powerful 1U psu.
 
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