Competition Rule 'issue'

divine`

divine`

divine`

Permabanned
Joined
21 Apr 2004
Posts
12,434
Location
Southampton University
Having just had a look at the Results thread for the unconventional portraits competition, I have to say i'm a little in disagreement with the outcome.

For years and years this competition has marked harshly on the clause of;

* Technical ( 1 - 10 )

+ Use of Photoshop or Image Editing programs to enhance your photo (Including borders).
+ Correct use of Lighting/Saturation/Contrast/Exposure.
+ Correct use of DOF (Depth of Field).
+ Appreciation for Rule of Thirds, Golden Mean and other photographic rules.

- Overuse or misuse of Photoshop or other Image Editing programs (Including borders)
- Bad Lighting/Saturation/Contrast/Exposure.
- Blurred photos due to incorrect DOF (Depth of Field) or camera shake.
- Unintentionally slanted photos.

Now, this time round, the winning entry (and by a large margin, also second place) is one that is, in my opinion bordering more on image manipulation than photography and so in theory should suffer in the technical marks department, assuming the given guidelines are even being remotely adhered to during marking.

It has fantastic theme relevance and certainly deserves all it's points there, the impact i'm not sure. It does have impact, but pretty much purely through the result of the aforementioned, fairly extreme, manipulation.

A few years back I recall a landscape image being severely marked down (possibly even DQ'd) because it was a merge of two image that allowed foreground and background to be in focus, the judges citing that 'the effect wouldn't be possible with normal photographic techniques and thus is overuse of photoshop' or at least words to that effect.

Basically, I feel either the guidelines need to be followed more closely, and in future such manipulations be marked down in technical scores as is implied or the guideline stating this br removed/rewritten. I would prefer the first.

It is still a photography competition. When the winning entries are only such because of manipulation techniques, does it not seem more of a 'Photoshop' competition to anyone else?

I'd like to hear opinions and evidently so would Scuzi, as he told me to post this :p
 
Having entered the competition since the start there has never been a strict no digital manipulation rule because it was never needed. It was clear that this was the Photo forum. The HTML & Design forum had a digital manipulation contest running once I think too. If you wanted to do that, go there. This is strictly photography. You take a photo, you process it, you enter. Things like HDR is acceptable because it doesn't change the existing content of the image, just the light. I completely agree with divine here and if I were judging it I really wouldn't have rated the image for this specific reason. The danger here is that people will see a digitally manipulated "photoshopped" image that won, and follow thus creating a new trend.
 
It seems that the fact that people accept extreme use of photoshop for most photos these days has led others to forget what an image that hasn't been manipulated looks like. If you look around other photography sites out there, they seem to have forgotten this too.

It would appear that once some trends are accepted then photos when they were once "art" or at least the question "is this photography or art?" was asked become the norm.
 
That maybe true and there are some brilliant people out there doing it, but the point of this competition has always been to get people out taking photos and to help them take better photos. Its not about digital manipulation.
 
In this competition, for example, I feel danza produced a brilliantly inspired photo that I don't think (or at least doesn't appear) has any photoshop work beyond the usual levels, curves, colours work. It has decent technical skill, good theme relevance and plenty of impact. Just the sort of thing I think deserves to be winning such a competition.

Where as taking Messiah Khan's entry (picking on him because he knows I love him really) whilst obviously very good technical images on their own, sharp, well lit, etc. there would be virtually no theme relevance and less impact without the massive manipulation present. Unless your face really does look like that MK, in which i'd get googling for some plastic surgeons :p

Don't get me wrong, the images are great but imo they don't belong in a photography competition and certainly don't deserve to be winning it by almost 'landslide' amounts of marks.
 
Last edited:
cyKey said:
That maybe true and there are some brilliant people out there doing it, but the point of this competition has always been to get people out taking photos and to help them take better photos. Its not about digital manipulation.
Click to expand...

That was my point.
 
Now, this time round, the winning entry (and by a large margin, also second place) is one that is, in my opinion bordering more on image manipulation than photography and so in theory should suffer in the technical marks department, assuming the given guidelines are even being remotely adhered to during marking.
A few years back I recall a landscape image being severely marked down (possibly even DQ'd) because it was a merge of two image that allowed foreground and background to be in focus, the judges citing that 'the effect wouldn't be possible with normal photographic techniques and thus is overuse of photoshop' or at least words to that effect.
Click to expand...

Two points and you'll have to excuse me for being quite brief:

A position on the judging panel may soon be coming available, if you think you can do a better job you are welcome to try when the opportunity arrives.

I don't ever recall that happening so it was probably before my time. Image manipulation technology and that acceptance of it has changed remarkably in a short space of time and the judges marking may have changed in order to achknowledge this.
 
ElDude said:
That was my point.
Click to expand...

Oh :D Well no harm in making it twice ;)

xolotl said:
Image manipulation technology and that acceptance of it has changed remarkably in a short space of time and the judges marking may have changed in order to achknowledge this.
Click to expand...

Not that small a time. Photoshop was out before this competition started and people have been manipulating images since the 1930's!
 
Last edited:
xolotl said:
A position on the judging panel may soon be coming available, if you think you can do a better job you are welcome to try when the opportunity arrives.
Click to expand...
So I heard ;)

xolotl said:
I don't ever recall that happening so it was probably before my time. Image manipulation technology and that acceptance of it has changed remarkably in a short space of time and the judges marking may have changed in order to achknowledge this.
Click to expand...

Indeed, it was very soon after I first started posting here, probably before you were a judge.

I'm quite happy to accept manipulation is ever becoming more accepted but I still feel some photographic purity needs to be maintained in some places, this competition being one of them.
 
Wow, I'm really disliked here of late huh :/

I did ask for public opinion beforehand...

I have often supported publicly (and strongly) the use of manipulation to provide results, and will continue to do so, in my eyes manipulation is a tool of photography no different to switching lenses, using flash, or filters.

I won't change my stance, but I will forego the privelege of choosing the next theme as an apology to those who have been offended.

I would be honoured if Danza would choose the theme instead, as his photo is excellent, and not in any way controversial.
 
Its vastly different in my eyes. The camera, the thing that makes photography possible didn't give you that light to play with. You made it all up afterwards. Why not have 2 moons in a landscape photo? Why not throw the camera away and create something completely CG? There has to be a cut off point, a line drawn in the stand. This is Sparta!!! No, wait. This is photography! This isn't an attack on you, but a discussion of digital manipulation in the competition. Don't take it personally.
 
See, I see it as very different, as cyKey does.

This is something I did for a competition a while back...

Other_Comp_Jpeg_200K.jpg


I was incredibly please with it (and it won me a game :p) but it isn't photography (the comp was image manipulation/photography).

The iPod shot was bland and boring on it's own, the firework shot was good but not spectacular. Combined and fiddled around with, they produced something I think is pretty good but it well beyond 'photography' at such a point, it's purely image manipulation.
 
You don't need to apologise for anything. Nothing i've said should be taken as a slur against you or your image. It's very good. What I have issue with is the fact it's won a 'photography' competition and I don't believe it, or many of the other entries were really suitably placed in such a competition, because in my view, they are more tests of image manipulation skills than photographic ones.

I feel the marking has differed to what the guidelines imply and go against the nature of what this competition has always been.
 
Helium_Junkie said:
And I've already apologised, you want some blood with that?

:(
Click to expand...

You can draw all the blood you want but that would result in you dying for the completely wrong reason since we're not having a go at you only digital manipulation in the competition.
 
Divine has talked to me and I can see the argument a little clearer now, but please understand that this is quite clearly caused in no small part by my entry's score, and hence causes me some upset.

As previously stated, I would still like danza to choose the theme (I won't take no for an answer on this), and I stand by my apology in the spirit of good will and simply not wanting to cause a fuss, or further change to a competition that was well established before I even picked up a camera!!

And no, this isn't emo :p This is genuinely what I feel will make me more comfortable.
 
Last edited:
You big gay emo :p No, I completely understand that you would feel upset with divine using your image as an example but its not your image thats the problem, per say, its the judges / rules. They should have said something in the results to make it clear that its gone beyond the accepted unspoken rules of the photography comp. Annoyingly, they declared it the winner :D
 
Don't apologise for causing the discussion. Really.

These need to happen (and do, every few months) to keep the competition at the high standard it became so well known for.
 
Helium_Junkie said:
That's it, I'm off to the corner to cry for a while!

:p
Click to expand...

*SLAP*

YOU choose the theme. You won fair and square boyo!

I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with the outcome of this round. Photography in it's entirety is subjective, which is something to remember.

The main thing is I beat Mohain, and I'm still at the top of the leaderboard.

BWAHAHAHAHA! ;)

Please let's not let things get messy again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom