Connecting multiple wireless networks.

RimBlock · 11 Feb 2008 at 05:58

I am having a bit of a hard time at the moment trying to get multiple non-wireless devices to connect to a wireless hub via attached wireless routers. :confused:

Here is the idea (no router to router cables going between rooms).

Livingroom;
XBox 360 - Wireless router (54mbit/s).
Wireless ADSL modem (300Mbit/s)

BR1;
PC (inc wireless card 300mbit/s)

BR2;
PC (inc wireless card 300mbit/s)

Storeroom;
Printer -> NAS--\
|----- Wireless router (300Mbit/s).
Network printer-/

Anywhere;
Laptop (54Mbit/s)

I would like all the devices to connect to the wireless router in the storeroom which would then act as a hub.

Just using a test wireless router (to act as the XBox router) I cannot get it to connect to the wireless router connected to the NAS box.

A few questions have jumped up at me;

1. How / what to set to tell the 'device' router which wireless network (hub router) to connect to (SSID / Channel / Subnet etc).

2. Can all devices be on DHCP with the hub router acting as the central DHCP server or do the wireless routers need to have static addresses.

3. If static addresses for the wireless 'device' routers then do they / their devices need to be on the same subnet as the 'hub' router.

I can get the wireless routers to talk to devices both wired and wireless but not to each other.

All hardware is Belkin which has been fine for me in the past. The hub router is a N1 wireless. The other routers are currently 54g models.

Oh and just a point of note..... the Belkin lovely shiney piano black N1 router is great doing 300Mbit/s but only has 10/100 wired lan ports :mad:

. A fact they do not mention on the box.

Cheers
RB

Curiosityx · 11 Feb 2008 at 22:14

What your trying to achieve is bridging between the two wireless access points/routers, can you post makes and model numbers?

There is a chance that either one doesn't support said function.

ste_bla · 11 Feb 2008 at 22:21

Normally you cant bridge 2 routers via wireless; its normally one router and a wireless repeater

RimBlock said:
Oh and just a point of note..... the Belkin lovely shiney piano black N1 router is great doing 300Mbit/s but only has 10/100 wired lan ports . A fact they do not mention on the box.

Cheers
RB

Also 100 via wire will be faster than 300 wireless

RimBlock · 12 Feb 2008 at 03:18

ste_bla said:
Normally you cant bridge 2 routers via wireless; its normally one router and a wireless repeater

Also 100 via wire will be faster than 300 wireless

Ahh now this is slightly confusing without clarification.

Are you saying that a 100Mbps wired connection is likely to be faster than a 300Mbps wireless connection ?. Now I know the 300Mbps wireless need the TCP/IP packet info factored in to the data sent and 300Mbps is max in ideal circumstances but is it really as bad as less than a third of the 'advertised' max speed.

We have a new flat which is currently being renovated and I am hesitant to have lan cables strung up everywhere as all cabling here (Singapore) is generally surface mounted in trunking (electrical / lighting / A/C etc) as most buildings are blocks of flats, reinforced concrete and government owned.

Ok, equipment (old and new);
Belikn Vision N1 Router (300Mbps wireless, 4*1Gbps Lan, 1*Wan - F5D8232-4)
Belkin N1 Router (300Mbps wireless, 4*100Mbps Lan, 1*Wan - F5D8231-4)
Belkin 54g Router (54Mbps Wireless, 4*100Mbps Lan, 1*Wan, 1*line - F5D7231-4)
Belkin 54g Router (54Mbps Wireless, 4*100Mbps Lan, 1*Wan - F5D7230-4)
Linksys 54g Router (54Mbps wireless, 4*100Mbps Lan, 1*Wan - WRT54GC)
2Wire 54g ADSL Modem / Router (54Mbps Wireless, 4*100Mbps Lan - 2700)

Both 54g Routers have a bridging mode but I cannot get either of them to connect to either of the N1 routers when the N1 kit is set as routers and not AP's or bridges (setting as a AP or Bridge turns off the NAT / Firewall etc). It is possible I may be able to get the two 54g Belkin routers to bridge with each other (I seem to recall I had this running when in the UK).

Also will the wireless speed drop to the lowest connected device speed on all connections (i.e. 300Mbps laptop will drop to 54Mbps if a bridge running at 54Mbps connects to the same central router) ?

Rough flat layout with hardware locations;

Going along the lines in the following picture now (network connectivity). Only one network cable required run throught the flat (Storeroom to PC(1))and one telephone extention in the storeroom. Only one 300Mbps card required for PC(2) so my wife will be happy (well happier than other more expesive routes

).

Any other suggestion most welcome.

Cheers
RB

benjo plz. · 12 Feb 2008 at 03:42

the 54 routers will only connect if one is in client mode, or if you enable bridging on both routers.

ste_bla · 12 Feb 2008 at 18:55

RimBlock said:
Ahh now this is slightly confusing without clarification.

I havent had a chance to look but on a 54Mbits "g" the most you can get is 19/20Mbits so therefore using logic (which could be flawed) 300Mbit = 105Mbit

So same (well 5 more) as wired if connected at full speed

RimBlock said:
Any other suggestion most welcome.

Cheers
RB

Swap the second 54g router for a access point (unless you have it and it would work)

RimBlock · 13 Feb 2008 at 00:30

ste_bla said:
I havent had a chance to look but on a 54Mbits "g" the most you can get is 19/20Mbits so therefore using logic (which could be flawed) 300Mbit = 105Mbit

So same (well 5 more) as wired if connected at full speed

I see, well following your logic which seems completely reasonable to me it would explain why they fitted 10/100Mbps ports on to the router.

I will set the second router to an access point and see how that goes as I relly don't think my wife is able to absord another computer related expenditure at the moment what with a new baby and all .

Two outstanding questions (ok, well one new )

1.
Will a wireless connection drop to the lowest standard for all clients connecting or maintain individual standards depending on the clients hardware (i.e. one 54g laptop and one 300Mbps PC conecting to a 300Mbps wireless router. Will the PC beforced to the lower 54g connection speed or will it be able to run at 300Mbps whilst the 54g laptop is connected) ?.

2.
DHCP.
As I understand it I will have to have two subnets. One for the N1 connections and one for the 54g (1) router connections. A DHCP server will therefore need to be running on the 54g Router (1) and on either the N1 Router or the ADSL Router. Is this correct ?

Thanks for all suggestions from everyone.

I will try it out latest at the weekend and post results for anyone else thinking of trying this.

Regards
RB

benjo plz. · 13 Feb 2008 at 00:37

1. I don't think N will drop to G for all devices, it won't perform at full speed though.

2. nope, you disable the DHCP/router functionality on all of the routers except the ADSL one.

RimBlock · 14 Feb 2008 at 01:46

Hi all,

Ok I have some sucess with a measured amount of abject failure.....

I have both the 54g routers bridging (*Hoorah*) but only with no encryption (WPA/WPA2/WEP). As soon as I turn on any of the encryption schemes no connection can be made between the two. I now have MAC address filtering and 'only allow certian AP's to connect' defined by MAC again. Not ideal by any means especially when I first cam to Singapore and setup my wireless network I have someone jump on in the space of time it took to add the WPA2 settings......... :rolleyes:

Both 54g routers are at their latest firmware revisions although one is dated 2005 and the other is 2006.

The XBox connects via Lan to the 54g (2) router and on to the internet. It can login to XBox live and stream media from my PC (but not me DLink-323 NAS but that is for another topic). It did seem that the XBox times out getting an IP address from the routers DHCP server though but only for the XBox Live conncetion (not for media streaming) so I have had to manually set the IP address which works fine if a little slower than the 100Mbit Lan connection straight to the ADSL router.

The two 54g routers are also connected via the Lan ports and not via Lan -> Wan so all devices are on the same subnet (192.168.2.X) apart from the ADSL router (192.168.1.X).

As I now may need to replace the 54g routers (one or both) bue to their inability to bridge with security settings, has anyone seen or can recommend any replacements. I have only seen 54g rated devices where bridging is advertised (gaming adaptors etc). Does anyone know of any other faster devices.

Thanks
RB

benjo plz. · 14 Feb 2008 at 02:07

RimBlock said:
apart from the ADSL router (192.168.1.X).

As I now may need to replace the 54g routers (one or both) bue to their inability to bridge with security settings, has anyone seen or can recommend any replacements.

Why?

They should work with WEP and possibly WPA but not WPA2. I'd personally get a Linksys WRT54GS as it can bridge using custom firmwares. If it's possible, using one of the routers in client mode would be an easier alternative

.

RimBlock · 14 Feb 2008 at 05:00

Well, gut feeling is that the standards implemented in the firmware revisions are not quite compatible.

54g (1) gives the option of WEP (64 /128, ASCII/HEX, 4 keys with default key option, generate key from pass phrase), 54g (2) gives the option of WEP (64/128, generate key from pass phrase).

With no security enabled I can ping both routers whilst connected via Lan to one.

54g (1) WEP (128, HEX, Key 1 as default although all 4 are the same)
54g (2) WEP (128, Hex values generated for pass phrase match 54g (1))

Can ping Lan connected router but not second router.

Document for 54g (2) specifies that WPA cannot be used for WDS bridging. WEP 64 and 128 should be fine though. Another device is recommended if I want to use WPA enabled bridging (F5D7132uk-54g range extender).

One other point that has been brought to light in the manuals is also that the 54g routers are UK models and may use channels which are not meant to be used for WiFi here in Singapore (12 & 13 but the look of the config pages between them and the Singapore bought N1 router).

The other option is to see if I can get the 54g (1) router to connect to the 2Wire ADSL wireless gateway although I do not have high hopes of this at the moment.

I have heard good things about the WRT54GS but to my mind it is pug ugly to be sitting in the living room. Would much prefer something like the WAP200 / WET200 or having the Belkin N1 ADSL router to replace the 2Wire supplied router and have the Belkin N1 router (not the Vision N1) bridge to it but I would have to confirm the N1 router will bridge to it before going down that road. It will be sitting on a shelf on a black low tv table with a Pioneer Plasma above it in shiney piano black so the Belkin N1 series whith their shiney black finishes fit perfectly.

Thanks
RB

RimBlock · 14 Feb 2008 at 05:52

Hmm,

I have found that DD-WRT is available for both of the 54g routers so may give that a go

.

Cheers
RB

RimBlock · 15 Feb 2008 at 02:10

Well DD-WRT failed to install with the firmware update option on the router management web page so I understand the only other option is to use tftp to load it but that, from the instructions I have seen' seems to be very hit and miss as to getting the exact timing correct for the load after a router reboot.

One thing I did notice when configuring the WiFi on the ISP provided ADSL modem (2Wire) is that htere were two DHCP leases to machine names I am not familiar with. As the modem was installed around a year ago I am guessing they are recent connections although the modem came with WEP already set and running. I didn't bother pinging the machines to see if they were currently connected but just turned on WPA2, stuck the machines in the DMZ and rebooted it.

RB