Considering an E36 M3

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I'm thinking of possibly looking for a good quality E36 M3 as a long term keeper. I appreciate that the E46 is the better car but I have a budget of around £5k to £6k (can increase it for the right car) and would prefer to get a good E36 rather than a poor E46. I have no objection to driving an older car and indeed the rawness of the E36 is in some ways an asset over the E46. It will be an occasional second car and not my main driver. It will be an occasional weekend car to love and enjoy rather than a daily driver so pure creature comforts are not top priority (just look at the car in my sig to demonstrate that :)).

I'm really not interested in a tired abused car so is this budget enough to get a truly good car which has had a lot of attention?

What are the running costs like? e.g. I know the E46 needs frequent and potentially expensive servicing but what is the E36 like? I am no expert but can DIY a little now, although with a long term keeper I would probably find an Indy.

Are there particular things to look for or to avoid? e.g. rust, or typical engine issues?

Were they all manual? I'd only consider a manual.

What are the most desirable colours or colours to avoid?

What are the most informative BMW owners sites to read up on?

Thank you.
 
[TW]Fox;25660363 said:
The later E36 M3 Evolution has the same servicing requirements as the E46 M3.

Thanks. And the earlier non-Evo? Presumably that doesn't have the same engine/servicing requirements?
 
Rust, Vanos.

Also, don't get one with grey leather interior, they have aged horrendously, and the Vader's are normally worn out. Black hide's some of the wear in this respect. They did make some cars with the SMG box, it must be horribly bad by todays standards, it wasn't good at the time!!

3.0 cars are generally more reliable, and don't suffer from the same Vanos problems, they are down on power compared to an Evo and are all older as it was the previous model.
 
You need matt82 to answer really, have a look at what he has done to his too. From memory he bought the car knowing it needed work but I would be surprised if anything but the absolute best examples didn't need a good bit of looking after.

Be aware the vanos is a bit more involved on an e36 m ( or e46,m for that matter) than it is on the likes of the m54, rust is the other killer as mentioned but it at least usually hits the panels you can replace. Don't let new paint put you off ( unless its poor, obviously look for accident signs) as they will all have had / need panels. The e36 in general is dead easy to work on, you're biggest problem will be nuts and bolts that haven't been removed for a number of years and hunting down aged components. Silly things like the wiring between the boot and boot lid always needs repaired too

As for colours I personally really like silver interior but the comment above is right, it doesn't age well and is quite difficult to repair / dye correctly whereas black can be covered over with better success. Exterior can only be estoril If you're going for the 3.2. Hellrot red is also nice

Personally at 6k I would be tempted to drive both the e46 and e36 then decide if you want to wait / spend a bit more on the newer car. In saying that if its only a weekend car maybe it'd be a non issue
 
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Rust, Vanos.

Also, don't get one with grey leather interior, they have aged horrendously, and the Vader's are normally worn out. Black hide's some of the wear in this respect. They did make some cars with the SMG box, it must be horribly bad by todays standards, it wasn't good at the time!!

3.0 cars are generally more reliable, and don't suffer from the same Vanos problems, they are down on power compared to an Evo and are all older as it was the previous model.

I'm almost certain that it (SMG I) was considered excellent at the time, and the issues only really stem from failures, not the function of the 'box itself.

Most people assume it's a clunky, slow box (I guess it is compared to the likes of DSG, DCT, et al), but I'm pretty sure that the majority of people are either regurgitating what they have heard/read 2nd hand, or they drove it like a manual. The key to SMG I is not letting off the throttle whilst changing gear.

I loved it when I was trying E36 M3 Evos.
 
I did quite a bit of reading up on these 6-12 months ago, the E36 that is. I was initially thinking of spending around the 6k mark to get a better example but when i started looking into it as its quite an old car now they'll almost all need quite a bit doing to make them drive properly.

From when i was looking around it was just mileage & number of owners that bumped up the price and hardly any of the "pristine" have had all the bushes etc changed which seems like quite a faf to do yourself, the rear diff i seem to remember looked like a barrel of laughs to do...

The whole VANOS thing put me off a bit too, everyone else in the game has variable valve timing but somehow BMW managed to come up with a system that breaks and seems really complicated to fix.. I seem to think the early 3.0 had single VANOS and the later 3.2 had dual so twice as much fail waiting to happen?

Also as with a lot of model ranges halo car there is a massive tax on M3 parts compared to the regular E36, 500% seemed quite regular :(

Saying all that i still really want one myself but for what i'd personally use it for (weekends & trackdays) i'd probably be better off with a 328i and spend the rest on mods to make it more fun.
 
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I seem to think the early 3.0 had single VANOS and the later 3.2 had dual so twice as much fail waiting to happen?

I guess in raw numbers, yes, but the 3.0s rarely fail. Saying that, a properly maintained 3.2 shoudn't fail either. You are correct in that the 3.0 only had single VANOS though.
 
Coming from a Corrado there are couple things youll find in common with the E36, mainly the nice plain simple mechanics, robust design and awesome six cylinder engine.

The biggest obvious differences are the configuration (FF vs FR) and the associated driving style. Although both cars have minimal driver AIDS, the Corrado will be far more forgiving to its driver and the BMW will be far faster in basically every situation.

The next big difference are the costs. The basic component costs for an E36 M3 vs the cost for parts on a 90s VW are worlds apart. VW front top mounts c.£30, E36 M3 front top mounts £100. Thermostat, £8 vs £50. Water pump £30 vs £80. Six bushes on the VW to replace (two of which dont wear), 13 bushes on the E36 M3, at the rear alone. £600 for new front wishbones on the M3.

If you go on to Pistonheads now and browse a few M3 adverts very few, if any, will list any important maintence that has been carried out to the cars. Whats the point in owning a performance car that doesnt go, stop and turn how its meant to? A worn out M3 may as well be a 318 for how bad its going to drive and given how little important maintenance is listed in these adverts I wouldnt be suprised if those cars are as bad to drive as mine was because theyre getting on for 20 years old and any original suspension part will be completely dead.

Like the VR6, the S50 is a mechanically very strong engine, forged top to bottom. There is one mechanical weak link in the engine, the big end bearing bolts. It was a high revving engine for its time, the big end bearing bolts can stretch if exposed to long durations at high revs. Bearing gap increases, oil pressure drops, shells can spin, engines can die. Easiest fix is a set of ARP bolts for the bottom end pretty much future proofs the engine. Mine has those.

The Vanos issues arnt the end of the world. On a 3.0 you can change the important seals in a couple hours. There are electronically controlled actuators which can fail (mine were fine) but the EVO has twice as many and theyre expensive to replace if they die although i expect most failures would be due to failed solder joints.

With regard to the 3.0 vs 3.2, the main difference in the engine's character is a bigger lump of torque in the mid range. The 3.2 has an extra 20lbft over the 3.0 in the low to mid range which makes is more civlised with more easily accessible torque, but then some people like the way the 3.0 wants to be wrung out (but that could be 3.2 fanbois vs 3.0 fanbois, just pick what you like)

Heading backwards we get to the gearbox. 5sp vs 6sp. 5sp is by all accounts utterly bombproof, something youll be familar with in the Corrado. The 6sp can have problems but youll have to google those.

The reason i bought a completely bottom of the barrel car was that i expected everything to need doing. Unless you find a museum piece for sale, I doubt you can buy an E36 M3 at the moment where every single suspension component has been renewed or uprated. Thats what i was aiming for with my car, though, its how my cars just are, so having a car with 20 years of wear in the suspension wasnt really an option so there was not much point in buying a "dearer" one for me as the adverts just dont list any important work having been carried out.

Colours, im biased, but Helrot red is amazing. It stands out in a good way and given there are almost none on the roads now, it reminds me of the woman in the red dress in the Matrix in the way it stands out. If I could chose, Id go for one of the purple/violet colours, they were a big thing in the 90s in the same way as VW had their Mulberry and mystic blue colours.

Now that my car is (mechanically) sorted its a hoot to drive. youve got 230lbft of shove from low revs which is enough. Its not a hot rod but they werent never meant to be but its plenty quick enough for the road and with no driver AIDS its capable of asking you some very big questions if you get cocky, the sort of questions a VW wouldnt imagine asking you, which i think is nice, you have a certain respect for it.

Compared to an E46? E46s are going through a painfully chavvy stage in life, the E36 is past that. The E46 is newer but ive not driven one for so many years I couldnt compare them.

Id say an EVO rear diff is an essential mod on a 3.0 unless you plan to do a lot of long distance driving (and if you are, it might not be the best car for you anyway). Also, being 20 years old, the car is unlikely to ever be totally perfect. Next on my list are door and window rubber seals and interior clips, but if you like fiddling with cars that sort of thing wont be a problem
 
Given the M tax Matt refers to, I'd be more inclined to find a tidy 328i and mod it.

You'll be close to 3.0 performance at least but without empty pockets.
 
Thanks guys, particularly Matt. I will take a look at the 328i too although it doesn't seem enough of a step up. Having said that, if the 328 is cheaper than the M then I may be able to keep both. It's strange that I never really liked the shape of the e36 but recently I've really grown to love the look of it.

Parts prices may well be more on the BMW but almost everything for a Corrado is obsolete now and used prices for parts is quite high.
 
I'm almost certain that it (SMG I) was considered excellent at the time, and the issues only really stem from failures, not the function of the 'box itself.

Most people assume it's a clunky, slow box (I guess it is compared to the likes of DSG, DCT, et al), but I'm pretty sure that the majority of people are either regurgitating what they have heard/read 2nd hand, or they drove it like a manual. The key to SMG I is not letting off the throttle whilst changing gear.

I loved it when I was trying E36 M3 Evos.

SMG I certainly wasn't well received in the reviews at the time. Hindsight has just made it appear worse still.
 
I looked for a VR6 for months before I bought the M3, I couldnt find the right car for me. Then i looked at a couple 328s (ie pocket money fun, 6cyl, rwd) but couldnt find the right one either.

The way i saw it was that i was going to be replacing a lot of parts and i have that "whilst youre there" mentality so lots of things would be uprated too, so after all the new and modified bits to improve a 328, i may as well have got an M3.

Also, the engine. Max power on the 2.8 is 5200rpm. Max power on the 3.0 is 7krpm, i really do like an engine that wants to be revved, but happens to have 230lbft so it has enough shove to be easy to drive at lower revs and then you can ring it out to 7k when you want to really smile

If you love the character of your VR6 (a nice dollop of shove, doesnt need to be rung out to get the most from it) then youll love the 328.

As for m tax, yes it applies to some bits (£100 per front disc, the top mounts, anything that is M specific really, for example the wishbones, water pump, termostat) but the rear end of any E36 will 13 bushes in the same way mine has. Compared to a Rado, the E36 has much more complicated suspension (so inherently will be more dear), M Tax isnt the absolute end of the world
 
Thanks again. Yes I love the character of the VR6. I need 6 cylinders in my life. There's something addictive about a smallish car with a large engine. I think I'll try both the 328 and a 3.0 M3 and see how they feel. I'm not in a rush and just doing a bit of research at this point. I was surprised that on paper the 2.8 didn't have more power than the VR6 though (assumed being a BMW straight 6 rather than a compromised narrow angle V that it would)
 
The VR6's biggest stumbling block is the head, thats the biggest, restriction.

The 328 head is much more conventional, so no issues there, but look up the M50 intake manifold conversion (ie fit a 325 inlet manifold on a 328) and you get a nice power hike
 
mmmm red

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e46s to have a gearbox problem smg or something like that. keep that in mind if you change your mind.

It's the SMG pump and there's a solution, by the manual.

Ensure the subframe on the E46 has been checked and fixed prior to buying, or negotiate that with the price.

As the OP rightly says, his budget would stretch to a ropey E46 M3 which wouldn't be worth it. Better to get a nice example E36 M3.
 
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