Convince Me

Angus-Higgins said:
I can only really think that programming could be an issue. I sometimes program in C# (this is a very small hobby of mine, and thus I wouldn't mind a slight change to it, so long as it is not major). I know that Mono is available, but is it any good for a C# programmer who is used to Windows and the .NET Framework?
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The mono-platform is fairly decent these days and basically the change to developing GTK# applications for Gnome (for instance) would not be that big. You may want to just look into Java which Microsoft basically ripped off for C# and really is cross-platform.

Angus-Higgins said:
Can someone tell me some of the most common problems people have when moving over to Linux from Windows? Also, if I am buying new hardware, is it likely to be supported by Ubuntu?
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Depends how long you are prepared to wait, cutting edge stuff will be supported just how long depends on many factors. Some driver manufacturers do not release any help to the open source coders so the proprietary drivers need to be reverse-engineered clean room style and this is a time consuming process. This really depends on the manufacturer.

Angus-Higgins said:
I really do want to consider Linux, but I don't want to be stuck in a situation where I will not be able to do things for school, and I will be forced to install Windows as well.

(I am pretty sure that when I start A-Level Physics next year, I will get a CD which comes with the textbook; is WINE good enough to run most Windows applications well enough to use? I know it would be slower than actually using them, but there could be small things that I would have to run for school).
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I got through school and university just using Linux only (That also included A-level physics :p ). I can't think of any reason why I would have needed windows then.
 
What I am thinking is that my new computer will have only Ubuntu installed on it.

I will have my older computer with Windows XP (it has served me well and is still very nice and quick).

I can then just use my older computer to run Windows applications.

Thanks for the input, I really do want to make a proper effort to switch.

(My question about A-Level Physics is because I don't think my school would understand if I said "I can't do the work you set (from the CD) because I don't run a Windows operating system" :p).

Angus Higgins
 
I'm not a C# developer, I used to do Java instead and you'd not have any problems at all as there's a *nix variant of the JDK, and IDEs like Eclipse... really not sure about C# so I'll not say anything about that.

As for the hardware compatibility question... if you're building this from scratch you can do a bit of research before getting the components and ensure that there is support for it on the HCL.

Regarding the Windows stuff on the CD from your school, you could always use VMWare and have an image of Windows using the serial for Vista or XP or whatever you're going to be buying. In fact, thinking about it, you could even install Visual Studio or your IDE of choice in the VMWare image too.
 
The thing with open source stuff is it doesn't keep up with the bleeding edge too well.
I'd use your old computer for ubuntu as there will be better support for that old hardware. If you are set on buying components for a new pc and are wanting to make the most of that by playing games for example, put xp (or vista) on the new one to get the bells and whistles and all the other stuff you can't do on ubuntu.
 
you could always dual boot on your new pc too, and use the old one for various Linux, BSD etc projects if you wanted :)

Would recommend an nvidia card for graphics as their support in Linux is exceptional :) Not sure what the state of ATI drivers in Linux is though I would be interested to find out - does seem that it's improving all the time though.
 
tophee said:
The thing with open source stuff is it doesn't keep up with the bleeding edge too well.
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This is the thing I was worrying about.

Technically I don't need a new computer, my current one runs Windows XP quickly, and I am used to it (I have had very few problems other than with my graphics card).

I do, however, need a "reward" for after my exams, and I have been planning to buy a computer for a while (and this computer will hopefully last me a while, and be relatively "future proof" (I think Linux could help with this).

I am not much of a gamer, and the only thing I usually do on the computer is making simple documents and going on the internet (a lot :p). I do have other needs (such as C# development, but this is very minor as it is a small hobby that I generally lack the time for).

Do you think that if I bought relatively popular components that were not extremely new (as in only a month or two old), Linux would be a good choice?

Angus Higgins
 
cb_linus said:
Would recommend an nvidia card for graphics as their support in Linux is exceptional :) Not sure what the state of ATI drivers in Linux is though I would be interested to find out - does seem that it's improving all the time though.
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ATI's support is pretty poor in my experience. They produce drivers, and seem to keep them up-to-date but haven't gotten around to implementing support for AIGLX yet. Means that OpenGL accelerated desktops such as Beryl are very difficult to get working. I just got mine working in Ubuntu, but the update to Feisty has broken it again. Still, if you *can* get Beryl working, it's really quite impressive.

Since I installed Linux, I've only booted my Windows install a couple of times, and that was to run specific programs that I haven't found replacements for.

OpenOffice is fine for 'home' use. It's at least as feature-rich as Microsoft Office for most things, and has less of the annoying bugs. But it still looks a lot like Office '97, and some of the UI is really quite offensive! In fact, that's the major niggle I have with Linux apps -- they're generally quite ugly. I can understand why... who wants to work on boring user interfaces when there is meaty feature work to be done?

I think for C# the Mono project (implementing .NET tools for platforms other than Windows) has a compiler. Looks pretty stable. Not sure about an IDE -- I'm sure someone is working on a C# plugin for Eclipse though.
 
Don't forget.. if you buy a PC which comes with Windows then don't open it and return it to the manufacturer for a full refund as per the EULA ;)
 
tophee said:
The thing with open source stuff is it doesn't keep up with the bleeding edge too well.
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how so?

You don't need to stick with 'popular' components.

Just find out what works best and use that.

You can run a lot of windows apps and games 'natively' in linux using wine and cedega.
 
xyphic said:
....
OpenOffice is fine for 'home' use. It's at least as feature-rich as Microsoft Office for most things, and has less of the annoying bugs. But it still looks a lot like Office '97, and some of the UI is really quite offensive! In fact, that's the major niggle I have with Linux apps -- they're generally quite ugly. I can understand why... who wants to work on boring user interfaces when there is meaty feature work to be done?
....
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That's one of my biggest gripes with Linux too. A lot of the programs I've tried have really made little effort on their UI. Windows, for all it's faults, is very polished and has a great UI. It's night and day, it really is.

Whilst Linux geeks might not really care about the UI much, your average, everyday PC user would be horrified by some of the clunky, quirky and sometimes dysfunctional UIs I've seen in various Linux software.
 
Angus-Higgins said:
This is the thing I was worrying about.

Technically I don't need a new computer, my current one runs Windows XP quickly, and I am used to it (I have had very few problems other than with my graphics card).

I do, however, need a "reward" for after my exams, and I have been planning to buy a computer for a while (and this computer will hopefully last me a while, and be relatively "future proof" (I think Linux could help with this).

I am not much of a gamer, and the only thing I usually do on the computer is making simple documents and going on the internet (a lot :p). I do have other needs (such as C# development, but this is very minor as it is a small hobby that I generally lack the time for).

Do you think that if I bought relatively popular components that were not extremely new (as in only a month or two old), Linux would be a good choice?

Angus Higgins
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Mono has decent support for C# development from what I hear and Linux is absolutely great as a development platform, whether you're building applications for Linux or another platform. Most distributions come packaged with compilers for almost every major language and Codeblocks or Eclipse are very nice IDEs for development.

If you're not a gamer, then everything else you would need an operating system to do, Linux has apps that will do them just as well as Windows (most likely better).

Be prepared for a steep learning curve though and don't expect things to be as straightforward as clicking 'Next' and 'Finish' in terms of setting up hardware/software. I built my system 4 months ago and had to go through a few different distributions (Ubuntu, Gentoo, Debian, Fedora Core 6) before I settled on one as some of my hardware wasn't supported. Ubuntu and Fedora Core 6 were the only 2 that actually installed, but Ubuntu wouldn't support my Marvell Yukon NIC so I'm using FC6 now.

Most Windows applications (if you can't find a Linux alternative) should run using Wine. If you're really worried about Windows applications not running in Linux, then I suggest you check out VMWare and install Windows in a virtual machine which you can run within Linux (I find dual booting quite tedious), but as long as you're not running games, I doubt you'll need to though.
 
Thanks for all the replies.

I am really trying to consider Linux as an alternative to Windows Vista.

The problem for me is that I cannot simply install Windows on a virtual machine as I don't have installation media (my current computer has no working restoration CD [this makes me feel uneasy]).

I think that I might consider Fedora Core 6, I have used this operating system before and I prefer the theme. I really like the great tool for setting up multiple monitors (although I don't know how good it will be with two graphics cards {does anyone have experience with this?}]).

I am starting to have doubts though. I have always used Windows, and I know I will have problems. As I type this, I have doubts as to whether I should use Linux over Windows Vista when the sole reason would be the price. (I really dislike it when one has an idea and then one thinks differently only a few hours or days later :p [although I would attribute this to saving me a lot of money :p]).

If I have a dual-boot system, I will use Windows almost certainly (assuming Windows is one of the installed operating systems), simply because I am used to it, and find it so much easier to use.

I was talking with a friend about this (who does use Fedora Core 6, but mainly Windows Vista), and he was talking about how he plans to change to Linux as a university student.

I think the problem I would have is that I would expect something too much like Windows. When I have tried Linux before, it worked well, however, I found that if one has something slightly odd in terms of hardware, or configuration, it can be a long process fraught with trouble trying to sort it out.

I got really stuck trying to setup dual monitors in Ubuntu (I did manage it in the end), and I found that the Ubuntu forums didn't help massively, the people simply regurgitated the same links (from Google) which had provided me with no solution.

I really need some very good reasons to use Linux over Windows, as I want to know what to do. I am pretty sure I will use Linux in the future, possibly on a laptop as one can install a small distribution on a low specification laptop and use it for notes, etc. so it is perfect for scholastic endeavors, and such activities.

I think the thought of this potentially huge change to my routine is what is worrying me, and making me think that changing to Linux is a bad idea. (I spend so long on the computer that I know everything I am going to do. I am sure other members know the type of operation of the computer where one does not have to read anything in the dialogs because one already knows all of them, and one could almost complete the operation with no vision). :p

Angus Higgins
 
I don't think anyone can convince you to use Linux or Windows... you have to decide which one you want to use for yourself. We can offer assistance or suggestions, but ultimately it's pointless if you've not decided yourself what you want.

You sound like a smart guy, and seem to know the major advantages of using one OS over another, so I don't think we need to really go back to basics and explain the differences between open source and closed source.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me as though you want to prefer to use Linux, but deep down you really don't want to. It's easy enough to counter-argue any advantage made for using Linux if you really don't want to make the switch, and I see your insistences of not switching as being indicative of what you want (as opposed to what you would like to want).

Saying that, I'm a useless shrink and a naff judge of character, so maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree completely :)

The one thing I will say is that, unlike Windows, it won't cost you anything - except your time - to try Linux and see if it's for you or not. If it's the case that it doesn't suit your requirements, then that's fine... at least you're not being a Linux-basher who's never used it and knows nothing about it ;)
 
GarethDW said:
I don't think anyone can convince you to use Linux or Windows... you have to decide which one you want to use for yourself. We can offer assistance or suggestions, but ultimately it's pointless if you've not decided yourself what you want.

You sound like a smart guy, and seem to know the major advantages of using one OS over another, so I don't think we need to really go back to basics and explain the differences between open source and closed source.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me as though you want to prefer to use Linux, but deep down you really don't want to. It's easy enough to counter-argue any advantage made for using Linux if you really don't want to make the switch, and I see your insistences of not switching as being indicative of what you want (as opposed to what you would like to want).

Saying that, I'm a useless shrink and a naff judge of character, so maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree completely :)

The one thing I will say is that, unlike Windows, it won't cost you anything - except your time - to try Linux and see if it's for you or not. If it's the case that it doesn't suit your requirements, then that's fine... at least you're not being a Linux-basher who's never used it and knows nothing about it ;)
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Good post I would basically say the same.

Angus-Higgins said:
I got really stuck trying to setup dual monitors in Ubuntu (I did manage it in the end), and I found that the Ubuntu forums didn't help massively, the people simply regurgitated the same links (from Google) which had provided me with no solution.
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You want to try on Freenode IRC.. Ubuntu has attracted loads of noobs and a lot of the more experienced people use different distributions and are more likely to be able help when it comes to editing configs to get stuff to work.

Feedback is important to developers then we know what areas need to be improved on.
 
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Thanks for the posts.

I would probably agree that I want to use Linux (and want to like it), but always instinctively go back to Windows, and stay there.

Windows is in my "comfort zone" on the computer and usually at the smallest sign of trouble I tend to restart and use Windows.

I want to give Linux a fair trial, in the sense that I would definitely consider it a good platform, but I have found it difficult to adapt.

I think I have the perfect oportunity to try Linux though, I will not have the excuse I have at the moment (in that I cannot re-install Windows ( :( ) and thus have used dual-boot for Linux [thus making switching when there is a problem very easy]).

I will probably do as follows:

1) Buy the new computer making sure the specification is suitable for Linux (Ubuntu 7.04) I will use the "General Hardware" forum for this.

2) Install Ubuntu 7.04 on that computer.

3) Purchase cheap KVM.

4) Connect my mouse and keyboard (and monitors) to both my old (Windows XP Home) computer (perfectly good performance I may add :p), and my new (Ubuntu 7.04) computer.

5) Use my new computer, and thus maximise my time on Ubuntu.

I think the reason I like the idea of Linux is that I find it a good mentality in a way. I am not saying that I don't like Microsoft, I think that they have done very well and that their operating system is extremely good (people who complain about Windows tend to do so only in their ignorance, or lack of understanding [or at least this is my experience]).

I think what draws me to the idea of Linux is community. On the computer I find it useful to have a community which will be able to help me, and the integration of Linux with community is great.

Angus Higgins
 
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