Dedicated sound cards..worth it?

_tucker_ · 25 Oct 2019 at 22:09

Coming towards the end of a large integrated desk build and I suddenly thought to myself what can I add that looks cool and possibly increase the output a little further so I thought sound cards.
In My main pc I’m running on a maximum v extreme so it’s the integrated sound driver on that, I have it plugged into a denon 7.1 amp with surround sound for when I game on the tv, but I also have as my main monitor a predator x34 and the sound is used via a 5.1 pro logic surround with an optical cable.
Would it be worth paying £150ish for a good sound card? Would I get any difference in quality? I hear mixed reviews online.
It’s also for aesthetics as the pc is mounted inside the desk itself under glass so I can justify some of the money towards it but if it’s a complete waste then I won’t bother.

Any clues or advice welcome tar

Drumroll · 25 Oct 2019 at 22:43

I would say not worth.

Marsman · 25 Oct 2019 at 23:02

No point if you are using a digital connection. Sound quality doesn't apply where digital is concerned, at least not on the PC end anyway, as it's data that is sent to whatever speaker system is connected on the other end. Electronics in the AV receiver convert the digital data into sound.

You'd only need a sound card, if you are using optical can't get proper 5.1 because most PC games don't have 5.1 Dolby Digital, as a DVD would, for example.

Ultimately, HDMI is the best connection to use to the AV receiver.

_tucker_ · 25 Oct 2019 at 23:14

Marsman said:
No point if you are using a digital connection. Sound quality doesn't apply where digital is concerned, at least not on the PC end anyway, as it's data that is sent to whatever speaker system is connected on the other end. Electronics in the AV receiver convert the digital data into sound.

You'd only need a sound card, if you are using optical can't get proper 5.1 because most PC games don't have 5.1 Dolby Digital, as a DVD would, for example.

Ultimately, HDMI is the best connection to use to the AV receiver.

very interesting I was always led to believe optical was the best for some reason.

the surround sound I use on the pc when at the desk is a pro logic z906, it’s a few years old not the new model and has 3 digital connections, 2 optical and 1 coaxal. It also has a 6 channel direct input so what one would be the best for quality then? Would a sound card be usefull in anyway with that speaker system?

as for the denon amp surround I’ll keep that as a hdmi connection then while I game on the tv.
I appreciate the info bud

Kei · 26 Oct 2019 at 18:54

_tucker_ said:
very interesting I was always led to believe optical was the best for some reason.

the surround sound I use on the pc when at the desk is a pro logic z906, it’s a few years old not the new model and has 3 digital connections, 2 optical and 1 coaxal. It also has a 6 channel direct input so what one would be the best for quality then? Would a sound card be usefull in anyway with that speaker system?

as for the denon amp surround I’ll keep that as a hdmi connection then while I game on the tv.
I appreciate the info bud

Optical has the advantage insofar as it has no electrical link between devices which prevents all external noise pickup over any distance to the limit of POF. (plastic optical fibre used for TOSLINK) In some respects, the limits of TOSLINK were never fully explored in the domestic world. In the professional market, it was used for ADAT lightpipe which could transmit 8 channels of uncompressed audio at 48KHz 24 bit or 4 channels at 96KHz 24 bit.

Consumer audio is locked behind the door of manufacturers limiting the available standards and connection types. MADI is the next level fibre optic transport standard which can transmit 64 channels @ 48KHz 24 bit, 32 channels @ 96KHz or 16 channels @ 192KHz. This uses standardised data network optical cables and connections. Video is similarly held back as 12G-SDI can transmit uncompressed UHD @ 60p with 16 channels of uncompressed 48KHz 24 bit audio over a single coaxial or fibre optic signal cable.

_tucker_ · 27 Oct 2019 at 08:29

Kei said:
Optical has the advantage insofar as it has no electrical link between devices which prevents all external noise pickup over any distance to the limit of POF. (plastic optical fibre used for TOSLINK) In some respects, the limits of TOSLINK were never fully explored in the domestic world. In the professional market, it was used for ADAT lightpipe which could transmit 8 channels of uncompressed audio at 48KHz 24 bit or 4 channels at 96KHz 24 bit.

Consumer audio is locked behind the door of manufacturers limiting the available standards and connection types. MADI is the next level fibre optic transport standard which can transmit 64 channels @ 48KHz 24 bit, 32 channels @ 96KHz or 16 channels @ 192KHz. This uses standardised data network optical cables and connections. Video is similarly held back as 12G-SDI can transmit uncompressed UHD @ 60p with 16 channels of uncompressed 48KHz 24 bit audio over a single coaxial or fibre optic signal cable.

I did always wonder how a new connection type was never designed in a long time i presumed it was because we hit peak quality with the existing type or it didn’t warrant treading further for domestic use down to cost issues. so in my scenario states above what would be the best form of connection to use with my set up? Would it warrant buying a sound card?
my other thoughts was some say it takes a strain of the cpu and mine is getting a tad out dated and I can’t afford a complete new set up.
I always got the feeling that my sound was never quite right, I can hear surround sound but it’s always quite basic and mainly focused from the front speaker. I never hear bullets flying PST behind me or anything like that but I used to with an old set up that had a sound card.

Kei · 27 Oct 2019 at 13:24

_tucker_ said:
I did always wonder how a new connection type was never designed in a long time i presumed it was because we hit peak quality with the existing type or it didn’t warrant treading further for domestic use down to cost issues. so in my scenario states above what would be the best form of connection to use with my set up? Would it warrant buying a sound card?
my other thoughts was some say it takes a strain of the cpu and mine is getting a tad out dated and I can’t afford a complete new set up.
I always got the feeling that my sound was never quite right, I can hear surround sound but it’s always quite basic and mainly focused from the front speaker. I never hear bullets flying PST behind me or anything like that but I used to with an old set up that had a sound card.

I think with the changes Microsoft made with direct sound in Vista and newer, a dedicated sound card is far less important now than it used to be in terms of hardware acceleration. I still use one, but it's a professional workstation card that offers a multitude of, inputs, mixing options and low latency. It has no gaming features whatsoever but it works fine in stereo which is what I stick with these days.

For gaming purposes, I'd use the HDMI output set to the correct number of speakers for the TV and the 6 channel analogue output for the other speaker set. Dolby Pro logic was a form of up mixing a stereo input to surround, so it's never going to be as good as a true dedicated multi channel input. The optical output will be stereo as you'd need a live encoder of bitstream, either dolby digital live or dts interactive. I used to use a xonar essence which did this and prior to that a creative dts-610 unit that did. (back when I used to use surround sound with my pc)

MrRockliffe · 27 Oct 2019 at 13:43

Not really - compared to an external solution, they’re not as good, take up an extra PCIe slot and are exposed to all the internal noise an onboard solution is.

JasonM · 27 Oct 2019 at 14:44

I've got quite a bit of audio stuff here, various sound card, various amp / dac, various hi-fi separate units.

I have a Gigabyte's Z370 HD3P, great reliable board in terms of computing, however the on-board audio is poor, it's like a really thin washed out sound, plus it quite bad oscillating interference. If your only listening on £20-£30 speakers you may not realised, however for a test I connected the on-board into what would be £1500 worth of amp's and Yamaha speakers, and this revealed how bad the on-board sound was. Even someone who was not into audio would hear the issues with the sound.

I was never bothered as always had sound card ready to be used in that computer anyway, however when I read people saying on-board is a good as sound card they can't have done any testing, or at least not tested motherboard audio into amp/speakers with resolution to make a proper comparison.

As an add on to the above. Part of the reason people say motherboard audio is good is down to never listening to good audio equipment. I blame the parents as a lot of people have grown up with no quality audio in the house. If people in their teenage years had access to proper separates, they would not want the cheaper audio later in life, people today are listening to music on phones and small Bluetooth speakers. If your reference is only these things you won't realise that on-board motherboard audio is not very good. It's a bit ironic as everyone has become obsessed with 24bit and 192khz but these don't mean anything compared to quality source, amplifier and speakers.

_tucker_ · 27 Oct 2019 at 16:59

JasonM said:
I've got quite a bit of audio stuff here, various sound card, various amp / dac, various hi-fi separate units.

I have a Gigabyte's Z370 HD3P, great reliable board in terms of computing, however the on-board audio is poor, it's like a really thin washed out sound, plus it quite bad oscillating interference. If your only listening on £20-£30 speakers you may not realised, however for a test I connected the on-board into what would be £1500 worth of amp's and Yamaha speakers, and this revealed how bad the on-board sound was. Even someone who was not into audio would hear the issues with the sound.

I was never bothered as always had sound card ready to be used in that computer anyway, however when I read people saying on-board is a good as sound card they can't have done any testing, or at least not tested motherboard audio into amp/speakers with resolution to make a proper comparison.

As an add on to the above. Part of the reason people say motherboard audio is good is down to never listening to good audio equipment. I blame the parents as a lot of people have grown up with no quality audio in the house. If people in their teenage years had access to proper separates, they would not want the cheaper audio later in life, people today are listening to music on phones and small Bluetooth speakers. If your reference is only these things you won't realise that on-board motherboard audio is not very good. It's a bit ironic as everyone has become obsessed with 24bit and 192khz but these don't mean anything compared to quality source, amplifier and speakers.

I must admit I really noticed the difference when I use my denon amp surround compared to the pro logic set, I know there a big difference in quality of speakers ect but I did always wonder if a part of that was to do with the on board sound card.
I do also use a set of wireless headphones worth £300 so they arnt that cheap so I’d wonder if I would notice a difference with them. I suppose the only real way to test would be to own the sound card so I could compare it to the on board one.
space wise I have a maximum v extreme so I have plenty of available lanes even with my sli set up.
I know it’s a slightly dated set up but it’s still very good quality and a big set up so it would be a shame to not all least give it a go.
Mabe I’ll see if I can pick one up second hand or wait for a sale

Rroff · 27 Oct 2019 at 17:05

MrRockliffe said:
Not really - compared to an external solution, they’re not as good, take up an extra PCIe slot and are exposed to all the internal noise an onboard solution is.

Onboard tend to use a lot of generic components in or near the audio path - even those boards which advertise premium capacitors, etc. tend to have poor routing and generic components still having an influence - soundcards tend to be in a little bit better position without having the routing on the motherboard itself (so not so exposed to parasitic current paths, etc. from other motherboard components) and generally a little more uprated component wise. Still unless you need specific features an external DAC of some kind tends to be best for audio performance in terms of low noise, etc.

_tucker_ · 27 Oct 2019 at 18:11

Rroff said:
Onboard tend to use a lot of generic components in or near the audio path - even those boards which advertise premium capacitors, etc. tend to have poor routing and generic components still having an influence - soundcards tend to be in a little bit better position without having the routing on the motherboard itself (so not so exposed to parasitic current paths, etc. from other motherboard components) and generally a little more uprated component wise. Still unless you need specific features an external DAC of some kind tends to be best for audio performance in terms of low noise, etc.

I see some of the sound cards actually come with an external dac, I do actually need one to be honest as I have no headphone jack at the moment, not an issue yet as I’m wireless but they are starting to fall apart and I feel a wired one will be of better use

JasonM · 27 Oct 2019 at 19:06

_tucker_ said:
I suppose the only real way to test would be to own the sound card so I could compare it to the on board one.

Just picking up what Rroff said, normally best option is either an external DAC, or DAC/Amp as they almost always have least interference. There is also another advantage as they are not dependent on drivers only the spdiff standard that will never change. This means if you invest in a quality DAC or DAC/Amp, you could have this in use for 20 years or more of your life.

V4NT0M · 28 Oct 2019 at 12:27

If you're outputting via Optical/SPDIF to some speakers I don't think you'll get anything out of it.

For sure a good dedicated soundcard is almost always better than onboard sound when it comes to outputting analog to speakers/headphones. I have a soundblaster ZXR and that thing is amazing when paired with some good earphones or speakers.

Arcane · 29 Oct 2019 at 11:14

I really liked the X7, thought it was excellent, surprised there's been nothing similar done?

_tucker_ · 29 Oct 2019 at 22:08

Arcane said:
I really liked the X7, thought it was excellent, surprised there's been nothing similar done?

that looks decent, I’ve never seen that model before. I like the idea of the dac models as you have full control directly in front of you but for me it’s something to stick on the glass top and cover my view of the pc inside.

EsaT · 31 Oct 2019 at 17:55

MrRockliffe said:
Not really - compared to an external solution, they’re not as good, take up an extra PCIe slot and are exposed to all the internal noise an onboard solution is.

Location in the end of USB cable is no guarantee for lack of problems.
Have read many times abotu interference problems with those hyped with freedom from interference "DACs".
While I myself have so far failed to get EMI out from ISA, PCI and PCI-express sound cards in 25 years.

Really only guarantee for avoiding problems is having no galvanic connection, meaning use of optical cable.
Which has its own problems: Because of age of the SPDIF standard it's stuck to only stereo signal, unless having AC3/DD5.1 or DTS encoder.
Which really sucks for use of headphones for gaming and movies.

Also USB sound card has additional challenge for driving headphones.
USB gives only 5V, which means that without including voltage boosting power supply for positive rail, headphone output is stuck to max ~3Vrms.
While PCIe sound card gets nice 12V giving good output voltage directly with need to generate only negative rail.
So for good headphone output capability USB sound card needs more complex and expensive power supply circuitry.

As for interference issue that's mostly down to design quality:
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/04/retro-measure-2002-lynx-l22-pci-audio.html
(notice "special" cable management)
And motherboards are awfully full of various things and power and signal wires and don't have room for area which could be separated better.
Even the cheapest sound card has starting position advantage over integrated in that by having own dedicated PCB.

Rroff · 31 Oct 2019 at 18:08

EsaT said:
USB gives only 5V, which means that without including voltage boosting power supply for positive rail, headphone output is stuck to max ~3Vrms.

Some nice little devices like http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dcp010507db.pdf that for the power supply give a pretty useable dual 12V (positive and negative rails with common) from 5V and easy to filter to remove switching noise also providing galvanic isolation so help to eliminate ground loops and to a more limited degree other EMI. In small quantities they are rather expensive (£6-12 individually) but in bulk the price comes down a lot though still a touch expensive for general consumer electronics.

Obviously still need to get the signal through in some way though which can bring its own interference with it.

JasonM · 31 Oct 2019 at 18:11

EsaT said:
Really only guarantee for avoiding problems is having no galvanic connection, meaning use of optical cable.

This is what I do on my HTPC in front room, I use RealTek motherboard optical out into a Pioneer DAC/AMP, to give idea of quality I purchased a second Asus Essence ST (with intention to using in HTPC), however the RealTek + Pioneer DAC/Amp beat the Asus ST. It was almost identical in the sound quality, almost not split them, however the Realtek into external Amp/Dac was what I preferred.