Derby going bust

Basically borrowed big to try and get in the Premier League and people moan about clubs like Newcastle and Norwich City.

I wish there would be more legislation for everyone. Man Utd should be force to pay off their debt as well. Even if it mean no signings for three seasons. Old Trafford is rusty and leaking for Christ sake!
 
There's already legislation in place intended to stop this happening but as long as you've got a huge gap in revenue between the Championship and PL, clubs will always find loopholes to get around the rules in place. We've already seen clubs, including Derby, sell their stadiums to their owners to artificially inflate their profits to get around FFP.
 
I'd be surprised if the club disappeared but I won't be surprised if it's a few seasons wallowing in lower leagues to come.
 
Reuben klang said:
It’s always the fans that suffer.

Independent regulator required. GNev has some good ideas about it.
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He and his mates bank roll his club to outspend everyone to gain promotion so it’s surprising he wants more regulation tbh. He’s a hypocrite when it comes to stuff like this.
 
omnomnom said:
Feel for the fans as it’s obviously not their fault. Morris however? Idiot.
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Reuben klang said:
It’s always the fans that suffer.
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What were Derby fans saying when the club was racking up huge losses, bringing in your Lampard's and Rooney's, plus all the expensive loans from big PL sides, all while Morris was pumping £200m into the club? They were loving it. And what would their reaction been had the club cut back on their spending? They'd have been calling for Morris' head and screaming "spend some ****ing money".

Football supporters need to wake up to the realities of the financial mess that so many clubs are in and not just expect some millionaire owner to keep putting his hand in his pocket.
 
BaZ87 said:
What were Derby fans saying when the club was racking up huge losses, bringing in your Lampard's and Rooney's, plus all the expensive loans from big PL sides, all while Morris was pumping £200m into the club? They were loving it. And what would their reaction been had the club cut back on their spending? They'd have been calling for Morris' head and screaming "spend some ****ing money".

Football supporters need to wake up to the realities of the financial mess that so many clubs are in and not just expect some millionaire owner to keep putting his hand in his pocket.
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It's true, Liverpool for example isn't nearly as bad as Manchester Utd, but still in horrendous debt.
 
I don't know whether I'd call it a point of pride in being a Villa fan, but it's something I'm comforted by. Even with near £100m in losses last year we're still in the green. Even with the Grealish sale we didn't go too mental this summer. The owners seem to understand that it's going to take time to develop a solidly consistent top 10 side with the ability to chase down silverware.
 
BaZ87 said:
What were Derby fans saying when the club was racking up huge losses, bringing in your Lampard's and Rooney's, plus all the expensive loans from big PL sides, all while Morris was pumping £200m into the club? They were loving it. And what would their reaction been had the club cut back on their spending? They'd have been calling for Morris' head and screaming "spend some ****ing money".

Football supporters need to wake up to the realities of the financial mess that so many clubs are in and not just expect some millionaire owner to keep putting his hand in his pocket.
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This annoys me with my club, Sheff Utd. Owner gets quite a lot of abuse because we haven't spent any money since getting relegated, but I'd much rather we cut our cloth and be self sufficient. It means we'll never be a huge team, but we never were so I'm fine with that. Some fans just seem to want everything.
 
RoboCod said:
It's true, Liverpool for example isn't nearly as bad as Manchester Utd, but still in horrendous debt.
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Liverpool's? Pre pandemic our external debt was sub £50m - the club then borrowed another £150m odd at the end of the 19/20 set of accounts but almost all of that money was sat in the bank when our accounts were released. We'll know for sure when last season's accounts are released but it was reported that a big chunk of that £150m was repaid soon into the 20/21 period. It would appear as if the club borrowed that money as a safety net just in case the **** hit the fan and 19/20 season wasn't able to be finished and or 20/21 season was interupted too.

Debt per se isn't a bad thing, it all depends on how it's come about and whether it's affordable. Using Liverpool as an example, pre pandemic Liverpool's was a result of expanding our stadium and building a new training ground - the financing costs were next to nothing (£2m(?) per year interest) and repayments were easily affordable.
DrToffnar said:
I don't know whether I'd call it a point of pride in being a Villa fan, but it's something I'm comforted by. Even with near £100m in losses last year we're still in the green. Even with the Grealish sale we didn't go too mental this summer. The owners seem to understand that it's going to take time to develop a solidly consistent top 10 side with the ability to chase down silverware.
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I wouldn't take a massive amount of comfort from it. Villa and Derby have followed a near identical journey right up until the 18/19 play-off final. Both sides were and are spending well beyond their means and relying on their owners to keep sticking money into the club to make it into the PL. Had Derby won that day, we could very easily be looking at Villa being in the same situation as Derby are today. Even in the PL, Villa are losing money - iinm nearly 100% of Villa's revenue is being spent on wages alone! Just like Morris, your owners took a gamble that they could spend their way into the PL - fortunately for you, they won but even still, until the balance between Villa's spending and revenue swings the other way, you're still reliant on your owners to pump money into the club. If they decide they can't or won't do that anymore then you too could be in trouble. You wouldn't even have to be relegated for that to happen, just look at what happened to West Ham when their old Icelandic owners lost all their cash overnight.

This all comes back to the huge gap in revenue between the Championship and PL. Doing what Morris and Villa's owners have done makes sense - invest £50m, £100m or even £200m in a Championship club and get into the PL and with 1 year of PL tv money and subsequent parachute payments, you've made your money back. Establish yourselves in the PL and you've potentially got a club making £50m+ cash profits and worth in excess of £500m. It's a gamble worth taking.
 
You're a bloody party pooper aren't you @BaZ87 :p

If it where the other way around we where in Derbys shoes I'd be inclined to be a lot more cynical but thankfully it wasn't the case. We've posted losses the past ten years as far as I'm aware (close to £500m) and NSWE would have known that before they got on board. So far the club has made good on it's promises to do better since the change, consistently finishing better every year. We've got a ways to go until we'll be as statistically well balanced as we where in the O'Neil years, but we're getting there.

I think it all depends on where we end up over the next two seasons. Not balancing the books is a worry, but everything is serving the long term strategic plan laid out in 2018 so far and it's working. If spending doesn't taper off and we don't make efforts to slow wage inflation then I'll be quaking a little.
 
Not being a party pooper, just realistic. A lot of people aren't aware of the mental state of the finances of clubs, particularly those towards the bottom of the PL and into the Championship. And as I said, it's not just your owners willingness to keep funding those loses but who knows if they'll be capable of doing so tomorrow. Again, look at the West Ham situation from 10-15 years ago - their owner went bust almost overnight as a result of the Icelandic banking crisis, leaving West Ham up **** creek. When you're relying on individuals to keep you afloat, you're never secure. They could drop dead tomorrow and then what happens?
 
I get what you're saying and I agree with all of it. But what are clubs like villa meant to do? I've never been happier as a fan then when we where battling it out in the Championship but most fans want top flight football and for that you need financial clout that most clubs at Villas level just don't have on their own.
 
DrToffnar said:
I get what you're saying and I agree with all of it. But what are clubs like villa meant to do? I've never been happier as a fan then when we where battling it out in the Championship but most fans want top flight football and for that you need financial clout that most clubs at Villas level just don't have on their own.
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The only real answer is a restucturing of the way money is split between the Leagues. At the moment the huge gap between the PL and EFL both encourages EFL sides to gamble their futures and makes promotion into the PL very difficult without spending huge money. Closing the financial gap between the top of the Championship and bottom of the PL makes that gamble no longer worthwhile, that in turn will cut spending in the EFL and make promotion without gambling the future of the club more possible.
 
BaZ87 said:
The only real answer is a restucturing of the way money is split between the Leagues. At the moment the huge gap between the PL and EFL both encourages EFL sides to gamble their futures and makes promotion into the PL very difficult without spending huge money. Closing the financial gap between the top of the Championship and bottom of the PL makes that gamble no longer worthwhile, that in turn will cut spending in the EFL and make promotion without gambling the future of the club more possible.
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They really need to push the Championship commercially. I follow Forest in the championship and the football isn't that bad (Well for Forest at the moment it is :p). I would say it is easily on par with quite a few of the smaller top flight leagues like Belgium, Holland, Swiss etc and they all have teams playing in Europe.
 
BaZ87 said:
Not being a party pooper, just realistic. A lot of people aren't aware of the mental state of the finances of clubs, particularly those towards the bottom of the PL and into the Championship. And as I said, it's not just your owners willingness to keep funding those loses but who knows if they'll be capable of doing so tomorrow. Again, look at the West Ham situation from 10-15 years ago - their owner went bust almost overnight as a result of the Icelandic banking crisis, leaving West Ham up **** creek. When you're relying on individuals to keep you afloat, you're never secure. They could drop dead tomorrow and then what happens?
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Exactly what happened to Southampton when our owner dropped dead, his daughter took over, cut back expenditure and quickly sold the club to the highest bidder who is a pretty dodgy individual! The money in football is bizarre but then even pre-sky it was!
 
I don't think -12pts is the end of it, even before they went into administration they were looking at -12pts for breaking spending rules a few seasons ago, I think they managed to get 3pts suspended so they could get 21pts deducted in total which will turn into 24pts if they fail to pay player wages. That's how I understand it anyway.

I mean, they signed Rooney on silly wages and then when they realised how much past it he was appointed him manager just to get him off the pitch and survived last season by a minor miracle, kinda sums up their level of mismanagement.
 
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