Different rules for different teams.
- Thread starter Danthus
- Start date
Soldato
I've just been reading a bit on this on Autosport and am slightly confused now!
The other teams homologated in 2014 and are now technically allowed to modify within this so called token system I think?
So why can Honda not homologate their current design by Feb as indicated then still be allowed to modify within the token system as per the other teams?
I agree it would actually be unfair if they had free rein to run and change whatever.
Quite possible I am misunderstanding!
The other teams homologated in 2014 and are now technically allowed to modify within this so called token system I think?
So why can Honda not homologate their current design by Feb as indicated then still be allowed to modify within the token system as per the other teams?
I agree it would actually be unfair if they had free rein to run and change whatever.
Quite possible I am misunderstanding!
Doesn't this kind of gaurentee that Honda will be at the back of the grid before the end of the year (solely in regards to the engine, so try and take McLaren's aero out of the equation)
I don't know why the FIA didn't just say the other teams could change their engines over the winter, but as of Melbourne every engine is frozen
I don't know why the FIA didn't just say the other teams could change their engines over the winter, but as of Melbourne every engine is frozen
Not missunderstanding, its just being badly reported (shock).
Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari are not being allowed to make additional developments through the year. The intention of the FIA regulations is to allow the teams to modify last years homoligated engine by X number of tokens by 28th Feb. Honda have to produce and homoligate their new engine by that same date. The loop hole is that the date wasn't specifically defined for the token system.
So in reality the rules allow the current manufacturers to be 'late' with their updates, rather than getting any additional development. Honda don't have this luxury.
So imagine Ferrari planned a new turbo and a new camshaft, but can't get the turbo ready in time. They can start the season with just the new camshaft and bring the turbo in later in the year. What they can't do is fit both the turbo and the camshaft by the 28th Feb, and then also bring in a new intercooler and exhaust profile later in the year, as they are restricted by the same token allowance.
It's about letting the existing manufacturers perfect the upgrades they were planning anyway, and not, as the media keep missreporting, about allowing them 'extra' development. The advantage to the current manufacturers is additional time to impliment the same amount of developments.
Last edited:
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
Think about it like this, you have a token limit and once you've used up your tokens your changes are locked and nothing more can be done. For Merc/Ferrari/Renault this is(from memory) 33 tokens of the 61 in total(cba'd to check the numbers but you get the point anyway).
Honda are effectively being allowed to make 61 tokens worth of 'changes' rather than 33... thus having made all 61 tokens of new bits for 2015 they become locked in to those changes. I don't see why they should be allowed to make an entirely new engine then also make 33 tokens worth of changes. Had they wanted to they should have got their crap together a year earlier and made the engine for 2014.
They have some advantages, switching to split turbo after seeing the Merc engine and dominance of it and some disadvantages, like lack of running time and lack of enough cars running the engine, but this one, the being locked in, I see more as them having more points than the other teams than being unfair on them.
What I really don't get is why Honda aren't out there offering free engines to Caterham or Marussia, or the admin guys or the promise of free engines for 2 years to bidders for the teams(which would save probably what, 30-40% of the budget) but would get Honda an extra engine running every day throughout testing and two engines running over 20-21 race weekends throughout the season.
That is something I'm both sure Honda can do, can afford no problem and would drastically increase their testing data and improve the competitiveness of the engine for following seasons in both reliability and performance.
Well - yes it is exactly that - the existing manufacturers have added time (which is after all , all they need) to perfect whatever "token" items they want.
Ok so they have to nominate what they want to upgrade before the cut off date, but that's not exactly a big hindrance given that they have probably known for the majority of the last year where they are losing performance and which parts will allow them to get the larger % of that same performance back
It still wouldn't have run in 2014 even if it had been ready, McLaren had already signed a deal with Merc for that year so there was no way Honda was going to have something ready by then
Apart from McLaren's year of exclusivity, and not only that Im not convinced that wouldn't potentially cause more problems than it answers.
McLaren's best chance of doing well next season would be ruined by sharing with any other team (and given the state of Marussia etc, Honda would HAVE to go with a team they KNEW would be starting the 1st race) so Sauber or someone even higher up the grid (if any other team was able to cancel any existing deal for '15 at the relatively last minute)
Last edited:
While the current manufacturers get additional development time to perfect their upgrades, they have the downside of starting the season with an engine not fully upgraded. If they expect 10% improvement with the updates, but hold back 5%s worth because they think they can make it 7% with more time, they are still 5% down for the first part of the season.
It's not the massive advantage it's being played up as. It's an advantage, but only in the region if allowing them to be late with their homework.
But at the end of the day the fail yet again falls at the feet of the FIA.
It's not the massive advantage it's being played up as. It's an advantage, but only in the region if allowing them to be late with their homework.
But at the end of the day the fail yet again falls at the feet of the FIA.
Man of Honour
- Joined
- 21 Nov 2004
- Posts
- 46,245
Tough luck. If they didn't want these rules to apply, they should have entered last year.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
If they got their act together to enter for 2014, they'd also have been involved a year + earlier and Mclaren could have not made a deal to run Merc that year anyway so, it doesn't really matter.
Exclusivity on an almost certainly unreliable engine with almost no reason to believe it will be faster than the Merc is pretty much useless. Also, the small teams do not compete with the big teams, that is just the way it is. They could give Honda's to Marussia, to Caterham, to Sauber and to FI... none of them would beat Mclaren, they don't have the budget to beat Mclaren. the only thing they'd gain is more data, better testing, finding more reliability issues and ironing more bugs out before the season starts and for every failure in another engine it could lead to a discovery that helps them prevent the same failure in a Mclaren from happening later on.
If Marussia or Caterham didn't start then... they'd lose nothing, they would be committing to free engines, if someone didn't use them, they don't make more. More to the point it's fairly easy to talk to either team and find out what the bids were like, if there was a bidder who could commit X amount a season and it was $10mil short, then it's pretty simple to sort out.
Works engine might be a huge advantage, but data is a monumental part of formula one now, with a lack of testing then lack of engines running is a massive, massive hurdle, potentially insurmountable.
If Honda spoke with mclaren and said we're 10's of thousands of miles behind the other teams in testing, lets rip up exclusivity and get a lower team churning miles out in testing and races which will help you, Mclaren would be retarded to refuse.
I think the single team thing alone will hurt them for at least the first 2 years.
Hey, let's not be to harsh here. Its not like these are how the rules were meant to be. Honda was expecting everyones engines to be frozen on the 28th Feb. The fact they aren't are a combination of yet more shoddy work by the FIA, and a blinkered, hell bent campaign by Ferrari to try and claw back lost ground on Mercedes.
Saying "tough luck" is rather unfair. Should any new manufacturer be penalised because of the FIAs incompitence?
Soldato
Drunkenmaster & Skeeter:
Thanks for the replies to my post. It makes a lot more sense now you have explained it like that and I can understand why they would do it now.
Thanks for the replies to my post. It makes a lot more sense now you have explained it like that and I can understand why they would do it now.
Soldato
FIA on making rules: "derp"
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
It's making zero difference to Honda. The teams are allowed to make their changes and can do them whenever, the number of changes they can make hasn't changed. Honda at no stage was ever going to be allowed to make more changes this year, they obviously had to have the engine locked to have a full engine. nothing has changed for Honda in any way at all. They aren't being penalised in the slightest, the other teams have had a marginal advantage but as others pointed out by waiting to make any changes they are sacrificing performance on the CHANCE that they get something done better or fix something later in the year.
It could easily turn out that say a battery upgrade they save the points on thinking they may need to redo the turbo midseason ends up costing them 20bhp over the first 10 races and the turbo fix they were thinking of doesn't work or isn't needed and so they put the battery in and they've actually hurt their season rather than improved it.
There is still no confirmation that any of the three teams will save tokens for later in the season. Teams ask for clarifications on the rules all the time, it opens up options and possibilities, it doesn't always mean they use that option.
Yep, the problem is people's opinions are being skewed by the poor media reporting on this. The false impression is being given that Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault are being given extra development while Honda are being blocked, which isn't the case.
And its all pretty irrelevant anyway when you look at the 4 engine limit. As soon as they use an engine for the first time it will be locked in that format. So in reality any upgrades are only going to be on 1 or 2 of their allocation of 4.
And its all pretty irrelevant anyway when you look at the 4 engine limit. As soon as they use an engine for the first time it will be locked in that format. So in reality any upgrades are only going to be on 1 or 2 of their allocation of 4.
Soldato
But they can still potentially upgrade 3 of their 4 engines, giving them increased performance for 3/4 of the season.
If this was a rule introduced on purpose at the start of last year, then fair enough, as all the manufacturers knew the state of play and could plan around it. But its only just been made public, and for all we know all the teams could have had development paths designed to exploit it from the off.
I can see why it could be seen as unfair if Honda were given the opportunity to do upgrades this season that the opposition weren't allowed to do last year, but then all of those manufacturers would have had those changes planned, and would have been installed before homologation for this season anyway.
What this is doing is effectively punishing Honda for joining a year later than everyone else, for no obvious sporting reason. It's just politics again.
I will see if I can find some engine usage stats, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that most cars will have used 2 engines within the first 4 flyaway races, where the cars don't return to base.
Plus I highly doubt any customer teams are going to get the upgrades either.
Plus I highly doubt any customer teams are going to get the upgrades either.