But surely even if the percentage of blacks being poor was greater (and I'm not sure if that's even true), it's only a larger percentage of a very small minority compared to other demographics, so dosen't explain why it's so much higher?
Discussing Cultural Difference is Taboo?
- Thread starter Marmot
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But surely even if the percentage of blacks being poor was greater (and I'm not sure if that's even true), it's only a larger percentage of a very small minority compared to other demographics, so dosen't explain why it's so much higher?
You are being daft now
OK, then gender - are there all male ghettos? No
Age - are there 18-25 ghettos? No
Colour - are there black ghettos? Yes, although I think only in the sense of there being a higher proportion, as Asians do form recognisable ghettos.
So while I can't avoid certain risk groups, I can avoid others based on simplistic criteria like colour. I don't see why I should care why there are a risk group, only that they are.
Soldato
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You are being daft now
OK, then gender - are there all male ghettos? No
Age - are there 18-25 ghettos? No
Colour - are there black ghettos? Yes, although I think only in the sense of there being a higher proportion, as Asians do form recognisable ghettos.
So while I can't avoid certain risk groups, I can avoid others based on simplistic criteria like colour. I don't see why I should care why there are a risk group, only that they are.
Firstly there are no 'ghettos' in the UK of any description. But yes there are areas with more young people per head than other areas (Student areas) and there are quaint villages older people tend to drift to.
Your basis for avoiding certain areas is risk right? Then surely wouldn't the logical approach be to look at the amount of crime committed in each area and avoid ones with the highest?
You seem to be approaching this in a very indirect manner by looking at the racial make-up of the prison population and then going back and deciding you'll avoid 'black areas' as a result.
By 'avoid', I mean 'chose to live', although I'm never going to Brixton again.
Yes I would avoid a poorer area, but as pointed before they are harder to identify. I'd specifically avoid a black area because I'd stand out, I'm sure they are aware that I couldn't tell one from another in a line up.
Re: other questions.
Much of Stoke has very little in the way of black people, not so for Birmingham, you don't need signs to know what position you are in.
Soldato
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OK then by that logic you should be moving to China Town in London given people from Oriental backgrounds commit the least crime per head of population.
Or does you ideology only work one way?
Take the bus from alperton to wembley and you will pass through what I think is called 'little Bombay'. Just because you don't know of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Or you could look at who is in jail and go from that, two ends of the same stick.
Local crime statistics does not tell me who commits crime, only that it happened.
It's either statistically correct or it is not.
It's no different from avoiding Newcastle or Hanley because they are full of ****ed up chavs.
You are being daft now
OK, then gender - are there all male ghettos? No
Age - are there 18-25 ghettos? No
Colour - are there black ghettos? Yes, although I think only in the sense of there being a higher proportion, as Asians do form recognisable ghettos.
So while I can't avoid certain risk groups, I can avoid others based on simplistic criteria like colour. I don't see why I should care why there are a risk group, only that they are.
So you actively keep away from black people but take no measures whatsoever to move yourself away from any other "correlated" group. Would you walk through a football crowd wearing a rivals strip, would you go into a pub frequented by young servicemen, would you walk through a group of youths at night, would you walk around Broad St in Birmingham late on a Friday night just for a stroll, etc. I am guessing not but you never mentioned those you mentioned one single correlated factor.
So surely if you want to be safe you would look at where crime actually happens and avoid those areas. Except you never said that you honed it down to one correlated group.
So maybe it's not about the areas it's about the people. So you chose 'colour' as something instantly identifiable - again ignoring that it is equally easy to differentiate age or gender - especially at a distance if you really wanted to avoid a certain group.
China town is next to SoHo and unless it's changed from when I was there is full of drug pushers and weirdos.
If you suggested going to live in China, then yes, I'd love to. I grew up loving East Asian cinema.
Isn't this what the OP alluded to, that it's impossible to discuss issues of race and culture without someone trying to pin the racist tag on someone, particulary by middle class white people who probably don't have any black friends, but think they are obliged to crusade on behalf of some minority like Bono.
That's a hefty assumption there who says the people discussing this with you are a) white b) middle-class ...
I've covered this already, I can't choose not to live in an area of risky male teenagers with mental health issues and who have their 18th birthday today, I can choose to avoid black areas.
Your points are getting odder if I might say so.
I wasn't being specific to this debate, but there are plenty of Bono wannabes out there. Although this forum isn't exactly overflowing with Dickensian waifs, most have at least a £1K rig.
Associate
I think part of the problem, for me at least, is that I like England's heritage. I like our humour, our way of living, the way we interact with each other, our social tolerances, sarcasm, use of tone, habits. It feels like home; and often through media we see England depicted as how we would expect it (TV shows, Films), so it becomes harder to let go of it.
England is changing fast, and what we were is slowly no longer becoming what we are. And I think as with all 'change', it's hard to take. It's hard to jump in a cab and have nothing in common with the guy driving it. It's hard to get into an argument over customer service with someone whom you don't share any common ground, beliefs, humour or even sometimes use of language. It just makes everything harder, and it makes everyone a little edgier, a little less laid back and a lot more prone to getting upset, angry and perhaps using those differences as a catalyst for hate and resistance to change. It doesn't mean they're bad people, it doesn't mean we're bad people. It's just like a bunch of football fans wandering into an internet gaming cafe, there are a lot of barriers to break down and 9 times out of 10 it's much easier to comment on the barriers than break them down, and breaking them down can be especially hard with such broad diversity.
I think forums are a fantastic outlet for people, and I think sometimes that people use this place and others like it as a way to let out their frustrations with modern society. That doesn't mean they're angry all the time, or they're going to cause a problem. It's just an outlet, like a punching bag. I think there's a level of tolerance needed.
England is changing fast, and what we were is slowly no longer becoming what we are. And I think as with all 'change', it's hard to take. It's hard to jump in a cab and have nothing in common with the guy driving it. It's hard to get into an argument over customer service with someone whom you don't share any common ground, beliefs, humour or even sometimes use of language. It just makes everything harder, and it makes everyone a little edgier, a little less laid back and a lot more prone to getting upset, angry and perhaps using those differences as a catalyst for hate and resistance to change. It doesn't mean they're bad people, it doesn't mean we're bad people. It's just like a bunch of football fans wandering into an internet gaming cafe, there are a lot of barriers to break down and 9 times out of 10 it's much easier to comment on the barriers than break them down, and breaking them down can be especially hard with such broad diversity.
I think forums are a fantastic outlet for people, and I think sometimes that people use this place and others like it as a way to let out their frustrations with modern society. That doesn't mean they're angry all the time, or they're going to cause a problem. It's just an outlet, like a punching bag. I think there's a level of tolerance needed.
Soldato
Agree with this.
Multiculturalism is a problem because it actively promotes people sticking to their own way of life rather than integrating and becoming part of the community. I would not suggest that people completely give up thier way of life and change their ways because of where they live but adapting your beliefs/way of life into the "norm" is a much better approach then essentially promoting segregation.
Multiculturalism breeds distrust, hatred and intolerance rather than helping the system.
Soldato
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I just happen to know what the word 'ghetto' means.
So you think the two approaches below are essentially the same?
a) Looking at local crime statistics and avoiding higher crime areas
b) Looking at racial ratios of prisons the avoid areas that are highly populated by the races that come highest.
Do I really need to point out the flaws here? Using your logic, you wouldn't avoid a high crime area that was mostly white but you would avoid a largely crime free area if the population there was largely black.
It's almost the dictionary definition of a logical phallacy you're making.
Now your veil is falling. What are you trying to avoid, being the victim of crime or just meeting people of other colours?
The accuracy of the statistics aren't in question but rather how you are interpreting that data (and changing your world view as a result).
And where di you get the data for number of '****ed up chavs' in prison compared to the number of '****ed up chavs' in the UK? Presuming you are consistant and this is why you don't visist those places.
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I'd say your answers and your lack of acknowledgement towards your own bias are the oddities. That flippant post rather ignores 'black' areas are not completely 'black'. That areas of such high densities of 'correlated groups' could be found - eg age. Did you actively get your abode in a pensioner neighbourhood - it would be safer statistically speaking by your logic. And again you ignore any evidence on crime statistics on the area and just look at the racial makeup of people.
You base a belief on someones criminality on the racial makeup irrespective of any other factor eg education, housing, income, parental boundary setting, types of crimes the police investigate, racial profiling and then extrapolate that onto race as an obvious indicator of criminality.
You claim to avoid 'black' areas but are not interested in the crime statistics of those areas. And solely exclude on the basis of skin colour. So would you as I asked you earlier:
'Would you walk through a football crowd wearing a rivals strip, would you go into a pub frequented by young servicemen, would you walk through a group of youths at night, would you walk around Broad St in Birmingham late on a Friday night just for a stroll, etc.'
Or would you avoid those types of situation. And if you did how come despite all those things you only mentioned skin colour.
So why mention it other than to allude what you meant to allude. At least when I allude to something ie your racial bias I am honest enough to say what I meant on clarification.
Maybe not maybe bitslice is correct and we would all be safer walking through a gang of drunken white youths than spending the evening watching TV in a care home with a group of black pensioners.
Permabanned
People more than often go through enculturation so that doesn't wash.
What happened? Did you see a black man?
Soldato
Hardly when the effect of multiculturalism can be seen with people living in "their" area's. I don't want to use the word ghetto but you do get large concentrations of a certain race of people in one area rather than spreading out into the community. Near where I used to where there was a large Arab community with all shops and signage in Arabic and if you walked down the street speaking English you were a minority and looked at suspiciously.
Enculturation cannot happen when people are locked away in there own cultural bubble and have minimal contact with the world outside.